6 ms·

This is, I'm afraid, part of a vision (of which Apple is the preeminent sponsor but Microsoft definitely believes it too, they're just less aggressive) where th

by xp84 4y ago

This is, I'm afraid, part of a vision (of which Apple is the preeminent sponsor but Microsoft definitely believes it too, they're just less aggressive) where the OS vendor is presumed to know best and the owner of the computer's wishes are occasionally considered on an "if possible" basis. Obviously they could allow whatever signatures go into SIP to be updated, so you could make changes and then bless your changed configuration, and it wouldn't really even be hard. But they consider most computer owners to be too stupid to be trusted with that kind of power. And, they do have a point, a lot of users would happily do any super unsafe things they're told, just in exchange for a promise of a free game or a cracked version of Photoshop or whatever. It's just sad for those of us who remember that computers used to really be almost infinitely customizable. If you didn't like something, and you cared enough, you could fix it. I assume that soon, SIP won't be a thing you could turn off even if you wanted, and while you will still be able to get a root shell on a Mac it'll eventually be on some virtualized entity whose permissions are curtailed to only a sandboxed environment.

JumpCrisscross 4y ago
> they could allow whatever signatures go into SIP to be updated, so you could make changes and then bless your changed configuration What's wrong with SIP being on or off?
- koito17 4y ago
  Off the top of my head, dtrace and dyld are gimped with SIP enabled, and you cannot modify your system volume for whatever reason (yes, that means "sudo mount -uw /" fails). You cannot use LD_PRELOAD if SIP is enabled, even on your own apps. Kernel extensions also need you to disable SIP, which is annoying if you want to work on a kext or even install one. For a non-technical problem: if you want to be able to share your screen on apps like Discord and forward audio output, you have to install a kext (oops, can't do that anymore with SIP enabled!), or you use "system extensions" which run in user space and expose less APIs (oops, on Apple Silicon macs the user has to boot into recovery mode to temporarily disable some security option before system extensions can be loaded!) The result? A lot of Mac users are simply too wary set up audio output for Discord's screen sharing because it means having to boot into recovery mode and do a bunch of stuff that will scare the hell out of any non-technical user. So it's not just power users that are affected by silly Apple policies. Everyday users, too.
  - zamnos 4y ago
    I think that's magnifird by the software you use, in this case, Discord. I've got SIP enabled and didn't need to disable it for Zoom or Google Meet to do screen sharing. There was one permissions dialog I had to go through in accessibility for screen sharing to work for them, and it's a tiny bit scary, but it's not SIP disabling, reboot into recovery mode and run crsutil disable level scary.
    - markemer 4y ago
      All features of Discord work for me using the normal system permissions on screen recording and audio. I do run MacVMs with SIP off, but I leave it on as an important security feature most of the time. It's really not a lot different that say, SELinux, except a bit easier to administer but a bit less flexible. RO system volumes are getting popular too. Fedora has one, as does the steam deck.
    - niij 4y ago
      Zoom and Google Meet share audio conferencing with Discord all of which require the microphone audio. But Discord differs in that you can stream the audio _output_ as well; think of something like Twitch.
      - zamnos 4y ago
        rewind.ai is able to capture speaker output without having to disable SIP, so it still sounds like this is a Discord-specific failing.
        xp84 4y ago
        Agree on this, but I would like to lament the loss of SoundSource, an amazing third party app that I paid for, that since some recent MacOS requires some SIP related BS to enable - which I’m not even close to willing to do on my work laptop where I spend 90% of my time. So I just lost this functionality, and unlike Windows MacOS has absolutely no ability to do this natively (adjust the volume and destination of sound per-app)
- Klonoar 4y ago
  SIP off can, I believe, muck with Apple Pay on Apple Silicon Macs.
zamnos 4y ago
https://owl.excelsior.edu/argument-and-critical-thinking/logical-fallacies/logical-fallacies-slippery-slope/ https://owl.excelsior.edu/argument-and-critical-thinking/log... If that future ever happens there will be much gnashing of teeth, but, well, we're not there yet. Apple's been threatening to do that since the iPhone was released and they still haven't, so while SIP is way more annoying to disable in Ventura compared to the big cat days before it existed, Apple hasn't actually done this terrible thing that we're all afraid of. It's not impossible for Apple to try something like that, but looking at the client side CSAM debacle, and Apple's backtracking on that idea, I think that a future rev of OS X that's locked down to end consumers just isn't going happen. I'm not saying it's impossible or that we can stop being vigilant, or even that Apple's a good business partner (they're not. they really seen to hate enterprise for whatever reason). But the day Apple makes that move is the day Apple loses their way again. Which they seem to have found again, judging by the number of ports and the keyboard on the M2 laptops.
Angostura 4y ago
Do you feel the same way about the light that comes on when the web cam is active? Should that be software disable-able?
- cbsks 4y ago
  No, that’s easy to fix with a piece of electrical tape
  - justinclift 4y ago
    Might want to use several layers. Some electronics can take reasonable quality pics right through a single layer.
userbinator 4y ago
This "vision" has been gradually creeping into other aspects of life too, and it's called "authoritarianism". It scares those in power to give that power away, because then they may not be able to corral and persuade them in the desired direction (i.e. to be milked for $$$) as easily. Apple, Google, Microsoft, and all the others aren't really acting in your best interests; they just pretend to do so and persuade with superficially convincing arguments, so they can get you to trust them.
antiatheist 4y ago
You can also see this sometimes in the development of Gnome
concinds 4y ago
This is macho-computing bullshit, the same as the 1980s "it's a toy unless it's a command line". For most users, SIP increases ownership and control. Chrome can no longer make your Mac unbootable.[0] Journalists and human rights activists can be slightly less afraid of rootkits that can put their lives at risk. Teenagers can worry less about RATs that access their webcams and blackmail them. Companies can deploy these machines with greater confidence that trade secrets won't be stolen. There's a reason Microsoft, Apple, and even Fedora[1] are all moving in the same direction. Most of the time, modifying system binaries is not done in users' interest: it's either malware, or it's "legitimate" large software vendors who couldn't write proper code at gunpoint, yet feel entitled to take over your kernel, make it unstable and increase its attack surface (look at Windows antivirus makers in the '90s and early '00s. Just look at how ISVs lobby against these security measures: [2]). [0]: https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2019/09/no-it-wasnt-a-virus-it-was-chrome-that-stopped-macs-from-booting/ https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2019/09/no-it... [1]: https://fedoramagazine.org/what-is-silverblue/ https://fedoramagazine.org/what-is-silverblue/ [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kernel_Patch_Protection#Criticisms https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kernel_Patch_Protection#Critic...
- xp84 4y ago
  Like I said. They have a point. You’re not wrong that all kinds of security threats have been neutralized by this change. It’s just sad for those of us who remember that by virtue of being a computer, all aspects of the system were customizable if you were determined enough. There were entire ecosystems of customizations and hacks available 20 years ago on both Mac and Windows. I’m not really sure what the Windows customization scene is really like these days, but essentially it’s over on the Mac. Even things like clipboard managers, I assume will be broken in the next couple of years, because it will be considered too much of a security threat to allow an app to monitor the Clipboard.

by xp84 4y ago

JumpCrisscross 4y ago

> they could allow whatever signatures go into SIP to be updated, so you could make changes and then bless your changed configuration What's wrong with SIP being on or off?

koito17 4y ago
Off the top of my head, dtrace and dyld are gimped with SIP enabled, and you cannot modify your system volume for whatever reason (yes, that means "sudo mount -uw /" fails). You cannot use LD_PRELOAD if SIP is enabled, even on your own apps. Kernel extensions also need you to disable SIP, which is annoying if you want to work on a kext or even install one. For a non-technical problem: if you want to be able to share your screen on apps like Discord and forward audio output, you have to install a kext (oops, can't do that anymore with SIP enabled!), or you use "system extensions" which run in user space and expose less APIs (oops, on Apple Silicon macs the user has to boot into recovery mode to temporarily disable some security option before system extensions can be loaded!) The result? A lot of Mac users are simply too wary set up audio output for Discord's screen sharing because it means having to boot into recovery mode and do a bunch of stuff that will scare the hell out of any non-technical user. So it's not just power users that are affected by silly Apple policies. Everyday users, too.
- zamnos 4y ago
  I think that's magnifird by the software you use, in this case, Discord. I've got SIP enabled and didn't need to disable it for Zoom or Google Meet to do screen sharing. There was one permissions dialog I had to go through in accessibility for screen sharing to work for them, and it's a tiny bit scary, but it's not SIP disabling, reboot into recovery mode and run crsutil disable level scary.
  - markemer 4y ago
    All features of Discord work for me using the normal system permissions on screen recording and audio. I do run MacVMs with SIP off, but I leave it on as an important security feature most of the time. It's really not a lot different that say, SELinux, except a bit easier to administer but a bit less flexible. RO system volumes are getting popular too. Fedora has one, as does the steam deck.
  - niij 4y ago
    Zoom and Google Meet share audio conferencing with Discord all of which require the microphone audio. But Discord differs in that you can stream the audio _output_ as well; think of something like Twitch.
    - zamnos 4y ago
      rewind.ai is able to capture speaker output without having to disable SIP, so it still sounds like this is a Discord-specific failing.
      - xp84 4y ago
        Agree on this, but I would like to lament the loss of SoundSource, an amazing third party app that I paid for, that since some recent MacOS requires some SIP related BS to enable - which I’m not even close to willing to do on my work laptop where I spend 90% of my time. So I just lost this functionality, and unlike Windows MacOS has absolutely no ability to do this natively (adjust the volume and destination of sound per-app)
Klonoar 4y ago
SIP off can, I believe, muck with Apple Pay on Apple Silicon Macs.

zamnos 4y ago

https://owl.excelsior.edu/argument-and-critical-thinking/logical-fallacies/logical-fallacies-slippery-slope/ https://owl.excelsior.edu/argument-and-critical-thinking/log... If that future ever happens there will be much gnashing of teeth, but, well, we're not there yet. Apple's been threatening to do that since the iPhone was released and they still haven't, so while SIP is way more annoying to disable in Ventura compared to the big cat days before it existed, Apple hasn't actually done this terrible thing that we're all afraid of. It's not impossible for Apple to try something like that, but looking at the client side CSAM debacle, and Apple's backtracking on that idea, I think that a future rev of OS X that's locked down to end consumers just isn't going happen. I'm not saying it's impossible or that we can stop being vigilant, or even that Apple's a good business partner (they're not. they really seen to hate enterprise for whatever reason). But the day Apple makes that move is the day Apple loses their way again. Which they seem to have found again, judging by the number of ports and the keyboard on the M2 laptops.

Angostura 4y ago

Do you feel the same way about the light that comes on when the web cam is active? Should that be software disable-able?

cbsks 4y ago
No, that’s easy to fix with a piece of electrical tape
- justinclift 4y ago
  Might want to use several layers. Some electronics can take reasonable quality pics right through a single layer.

userbinator 4y ago

This "vision" has been gradually creeping into other aspects of life too, and it's called "authoritarianism". It scares those in power to give that power away, because then they may not be able to corral and persuade them in the desired direction (i.e. to be milked for $$$) as easily. Apple, Google, Microsoft, and all the others aren't really acting in your best interests; they just pretend to do so and persuade with superficially convincing arguments, so they can get you to trust them.

antiatheist 4y ago

You can also see this sometimes in the development of Gnome

concinds 4y ago

This is macho-computing bullshit, the same as the 1980s "it's a toy unless it's a command line". For most users, SIP increases ownership and control. Chrome can no longer make your Mac unbootable.[0] Journalists and human rights activists can be slightly less afraid of rootkits that can put their lives at risk. Teenagers can worry less about RATs that access their webcams and blackmail them. Companies can deploy these machines with greater confidence that trade secrets won't be stolen. There's a reason Microsoft, Apple, and even Fedora[1] are all moving in the same direction. Most of the time, modifying system binaries is not done in users' interest: it's either malware, or it's "legitimate" large software vendors who couldn't write proper code at gunpoint, yet feel entitled to take over your kernel, make it unstable and increase its attack surface (look at Windows antivirus makers in the '90s and early '00s. Just look at how ISVs lobby against these security measures: [2]). [0]: https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2019/09/no-it-wasnt-a-virus-it-was-chrome-that-stopped-macs-from-booting/ https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2019/09/no-it... [1]: https://fedoramagazine.org/what-is-silverblue/ https://fedoramagazine.org/what-is-silverblue/ [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kernel_Patch_Protection#Criticisms https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kernel_Patch_Protection#Critic...

xp84 4y ago
Like I said. They have a point. You’re not wrong that all kinds of security threats have been neutralized by this change. It’s just sad for those of us who remember that by virtue of being a computer, all aspects of the system were customizable if you were determined enough. There were entire ecosystems of customizations and hacks available 20 years ago on both Mac and Windows. I’m not really sure what the Windows customization scene is really like these days, but essentially it’s over on the Mac. Even things like clipboard managers, I assume will be broken in the next couple of years, because it will be considered too much of a security threat to allow an app to monitor the Clipboard.