6 ms·

The ONLY thing that will EVER stop the cartels, and the overdoses, is LEGAL SUBSTANCE purchasing. The few modern efforts, of say Oregon, only eliminate crimina

by johnea 4y ago

The ONLY thing that will EVER stop the cartels, and the overdoses, is LEGAL SUBSTANCE purchasing. The few modern efforts, of say Oregon, only eliminate criminal charges for posession. This will do NOTHING to defund the cartels, or stop the overdoses due to unknown strength/dosing.

cowpig 4y ago
Do you think that the Sackler family has had a positive impact on overdoses in the US?
- pstuart 4y ago
  The Sackler's were unscrupulous dope peddlers. The whole premise of Oxycontin was a lie: specifically that it lasted longer than it did; combined with actively pushing the medication for cases where it wasn't necessary helped set up the crisis. That said, there will always be demand and that demand would be better served if not criminalized. These drugs should be made available for legal purchase but we need to find ways to incentivize minimizing the sale and consumption of such. I fail to see the difference between letting an adult drink themselves to death vs doping themselves into oblivion. The former is both legal and acceptable whereas the latter is not; but they're effectively the same.
- amdolan 4y ago
  Pushing addiction and pushing treatment are two very different things.
- sobkas 4y ago
  > Do you think that the Sackler family has had a positive impact on overdoses in the US? It's better to use prescription drugs than mystery substance available on the streets. At least you know what you are taking.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
anon291 4y ago
Opioids have been a scourge on every society in which they have proliferated. They have their uses but there is no example in history of a place with legal opioids not having overdoses and dependency issues.
- tomjen3 4y ago
  You can't overdose on coffee, but a lot of people will happily say that they are addicted. Yet it causes no greater societal issues, because it is legal.
  - anon291 4y ago
    Opioids have a long history of causing societal issues. That is my point. Society has a long history, and AFAICT, the social impact is positive (more productivity).
  - MandieD 4y ago
    It's also not terribly psychoactive, doesn't make you drive unsafely, and can't permanently ruin your brain or change your personality, unlike that other addictive and legal, but often harmful substance that causes plenty of societal issues: alcohol. And I say this as someone who really likes wine and would drink it pretty much every day, if it weren't for that whole "can permanently ruin your brain" business.
  - ajmurmann 4y ago
    The new meth is as total disaster that can render a consumer indistinguishable from a schizophrenic for up to a year. Rehab for that duration is prohibitively expensive and you cannot tell me that turning yourself into a virtual schizophrenic is an option we need in our society. I'm all for legal marijuana, mushrooms, LSD, maybe even cocaine. But this shit has gotta go! Source: https://www.econtalk.org/sam-quinones-on-meth-fentanyl-and-the-least-of-us/ https://www.econtalk.org/sam-quinones-on-meth-fentanyl-and-t...
  - lazide 4y ago
    Caffeine is very different from opiates.
numpad0 4y ago
Doubt it, extreme population density plus good education plus social mobility seems to suppress a lot of crimes too.
mjevans 4y ago
People need paths to help (recovery / redemption), integration in society, and happiness. Everyone, including those who would seek to escape with drugs (which should be legalized, taxed, and regulated so they are used responsibly), and those who need a direction to walk to reach success. Cartels, and predatory businesses who happen to be legal, make their money off of the suffering of others. Society, that is the collective will of the people, has the choice of choosing tolerance, compassion, and empathy to dry up the source of the evil poison that corrodes people and the places they live.
stochastastic 4y ago
I don’t think legalization is better for everyone, though. I live in Oregon and I’ve been very disappointed with the impact of decriminalizing possession. Cases are no longer clogging the courts, instead we have people using in my neighborhood park and on public transit. I stopped taking the train after a ride where we had to evacuate because someone was smoking fentanyl (apparently even the second-hand smoke can affect a person). It was, apparently, not his first time. You seem to support it, how would you address the externalities?
- JKCalhoun 4y ago
  I'm with you. "Legalize everything" stops working when addictive substances are involved. To play Devil's advocate for the opposition though, perhaps we need Fentanyl Island where we send people that want everything legal. Okay, not a serious proposal ... or maybe I'm channelling Brave New World — a book I have come to believe was in fact supposed to represent a Utopian future after all.
  - jl6 4y ago
    Another haha-only-serious plan would be for the government to stop seizing drugs at busts and instead covertly intercept them, lace a certain percentage with ultra-lethal poison, and send them on their merry way. As the body count rises, it becomes way too dangerous to buy anything through illegal channels.
    - knodi123 4y ago
      Or just deputize Duterte and let him execute every addict and dealer he can get his bloody hands on. Genius idea, I wonder why no one else thought of the utterly psychopathic solution?
  - amanaplanacanal 4y ago
    > "Legalize everything" stops working when addictive substances are involved. I dunno. We tried making alcohol illegal for a while in the US. Alcohol is pretty addictive, isn't it? And we ran into the same problems we have with other illegal drugs, for the same reason.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
Jackie4Chan 4y ago
If the intention was to stop them, it would have been legalized a long time ago.
unethical_ban 4y ago
Making a substance that is both highly addictive and highly deadly/prone to instant overdose is pushing death. Addictiveness, long term health detriment and short term OD chance should all be factored into legalization discussions. Things that should probably be legalized ASAP: Psychedelics, cannabis Things that may be safe to use occasionally but with high OD risk: cocaine (example). Perhaps with a prescription? Things that have extremely high risk to long term mental/physical health and overdose: Heroin, PCP, meth, fentanyl --- Point being: No, I disagree, even in a world where the choice of the individual should have high weight, there are some things that should not be allowed to flourish (particularly with profit motives) and must be stamped out.
- zajio1am 4y ago
  According to Scott Alexander, amphetamines are relatively safe even long-term with reasonable dosage: https://slatestarcodex.com/2017/12/28/adderall-risks-much-more-than-you-wanted-to-know/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2017/12/28/adderall-risks-much-mo... and methamphetamines are not much different: https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/know-your-amphetamines https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/know-your-amphetamines
maratbn 4y ago
No the only thing that can stop the cartels and the overdoses is a robust, effective, and non-corrupt law enforcement system deterring the drug dealing and smuggling with severe criminal penalties.

by johnea 4y ago

cowpig 4y ago

Do you think that the Sackler family has had a positive impact on overdoses in the US?

pstuart 4y ago
The Sackler's were unscrupulous dope peddlers. The whole premise of Oxycontin was a lie: specifically that it lasted longer than it did; combined with actively pushing the medication for cases where it wasn't necessary helped set up the crisis. That said, there will always be demand and that demand would be better served if not criminalized. These drugs should be made available for legal purchase but we need to find ways to incentivize minimizing the sale and consumption of such. I fail to see the difference between letting an adult drink themselves to death vs doping themselves into oblivion. The former is both legal and acceptable whereas the latter is not; but they're effectively the same.
amdolan 4y ago
Pushing addiction and pushing treatment are two very different things.
sobkas 4y ago
> Do you think that the Sackler family has had a positive impact on overdoses in the US? It's better to use prescription drugs than mystery substance available on the streets. At least you know what you are taking.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

anon291 4y ago

Opioids have been a scourge on every society in which they have proliferated. They have their uses but there is no example in history of a place with legal opioids not having overdoses and dependency issues.

tomjen3 4y ago
You can't overdose on coffee, but a lot of people will happily say that they are addicted. Yet it causes no greater societal issues, because it is legal.
- anon291 4y ago
  Opioids have a long history of causing societal issues. That is my point. Society has a long history, and AFAICT, the social impact is positive (more productivity).
- MandieD 4y ago
  It's also not terribly psychoactive, doesn't make you drive unsafely, and can't permanently ruin your brain or change your personality, unlike that other addictive and legal, but often harmful substance that causes plenty of societal issues: alcohol. And I say this as someone who really likes wine and would drink it pretty much every day, if it weren't for that whole "can permanently ruin your brain" business.
- ajmurmann 4y ago
  The new meth is as total disaster that can render a consumer indistinguishable from a schizophrenic for up to a year. Rehab for that duration is prohibitively expensive and you cannot tell me that turning yourself into a virtual schizophrenic is an option we need in our society. I'm all for legal marijuana, mushrooms, LSD, maybe even cocaine. But this shit has gotta go! Source: https://www.econtalk.org/sam-quinones-on-meth-fentanyl-and-the-least-of-us/ https://www.econtalk.org/sam-quinones-on-meth-fentanyl-and-t...
- lazide 4y ago
  Caffeine is very different from opiates.

numpad0 4y ago

Doubt it, extreme population density plus good education plus social mobility seems to suppress a lot of crimes too.

mjevans 4y ago

People need paths to help (recovery / redemption), integration in society, and happiness. Everyone, including those who would seek to escape with drugs (which should be legalized, taxed, and regulated so they are used responsibly), and those who need a direction to walk to reach success. Cartels, and predatory businesses who happen to be legal, make their money off of the suffering of others. Society, that is the collective will of the people, has the choice of choosing tolerance, compassion, and empathy to dry up the source of the evil poison that corrodes people and the places they live.

stochastastic 4y ago

I don’t think legalization is better for everyone, though. I live in Oregon and I’ve been very disappointed with the impact of decriminalizing possession. Cases are no longer clogging the courts, instead we have people using in my neighborhood park and on public transit. I stopped taking the train after a ride where we had to evacuate because someone was smoking fentanyl (apparently even the second-hand smoke can affect a person). It was, apparently, not his first time. You seem to support it, how would you address the externalities?

JKCalhoun 4y ago
I'm with you. "Legalize everything" stops working when addictive substances are involved. To play Devil's advocate for the opposition though, perhaps we need Fentanyl Island where we send people that want everything legal. Okay, not a serious proposal ... or maybe I'm channelling Brave New World — a book I have come to believe was in fact supposed to represent a Utopian future after all.
- jl6 4y ago
  Another haha-only-serious plan would be for the government to stop seizing drugs at busts and instead covertly intercept them, lace a certain percentage with ultra-lethal poison, and send them on their merry way. As the body count rises, it becomes way too dangerous to buy anything through illegal channels.
  - knodi123 4y ago
    Or just deputize Duterte and let him execute every addict and dealer he can get his bloody hands on. Genius idea, I wonder why no one else thought of the utterly psychopathic solution?
- amanaplanacanal 4y ago
  > "Legalize everything" stops working when addictive substances are involved. I dunno. We tried making alcohol illegal for a while in the US. Alcohol is pretty addictive, isn't it? And we ran into the same problems we have with other illegal drugs, for the same reason.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

Jackie4Chan 4y ago

If the intention was to stop them, it would have been legalized a long time ago.

unethical_ban 4y ago

Making a substance that is both highly addictive and highly deadly/prone to instant overdose is pushing death. Addictiveness, long term health detriment and short term OD chance should all be factored into legalization discussions. Things that should probably be legalized ASAP: Psychedelics, cannabis Things that may be safe to use occasionally but with high OD risk: cocaine (example). Perhaps with a prescription? Things that have extremely high risk to long term mental/physical health and overdose: Heroin, PCP, meth, fentanyl --- Point being: No, I disagree, even in a world where the choice of the individual should have high weight, there are some things that should not be allowed to flourish (particularly with profit motives) and must be stamped out.

zajio1am 4y ago
According to Scott Alexander, amphetamines are relatively safe even long-term with reasonable dosage: https://slatestarcodex.com/2017/12/28/adderall-risks-much-more-than-you-wanted-to-know/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2017/12/28/adderall-risks-much-mo... and methamphetamines are not much different: https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/know-your-amphetamines https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/know-your-amphetamines

maratbn 4y ago

No the only thing that can stop the cartels and the overdoses is a robust, effective, and non-corrupt law enforcement system deterring the drug dealing and smuggling with severe criminal penalties.