4 ms·

This is blatantly false. It’s stated very plainly in the traditions spoken every meeting that the 12-based programs don’t align with any sect denomination or re

This is blatantly false. It’s stated very plainly in the traditions spoken every meeting that the 12-based programs don’t align with any sect denomination or religion. The programs are faith based and widely supported by medical professionals. Plenty of folks have problems with anything being faith based, but unfortunately there aren’t better alternatives for alcoholics and addicts.

sirsinsalot 4y ago
[flagged]
- comfypotato 4y ago
  This is offensive and a blatant violation of the HN rules. 12-step programs are definitively unrelated to any religion and well respected by the professional medical community. Various religious institutions around the world host the meetings altruistically, and it has no influence on the fundamental content and purpose of the 12-step programs.
  - sirsinsalot 4y ago
    God is mentioned in 4 of the AA 12 steps, as an example. Spirituality/Him or a "higher power" referenced in 7 of them. Don't get me started on the others. It may be respected by the US medical community (and we know how uncommercial and trust worthy that is!) elsewhere we go by science backed systems that aren't just relapse setups. The US health care system has some of the worst statistics in developed nations for prescription addiction, post natal death, infant mortality, death during pregnancy and lots more. Forgive me for thinking you are infact, willfully ignorant. That's my opinion and I can hold it. The psudo-psychology nonsense these schemes peddle is nothing short of 1800s "you've got ghosts in your blood" nonsense. I'm an ex addict.
    - comfypotato 4y ago
      Your mention of the dismal US healthcare system is ad hominem and irrelevant. 12-step programs are empirically superior to any alternative; established by comprehensive literature review [1]. Your “science-backed” implication is utterly false. 12-step literature repeatedly, to exhaustion, emphasizes that the spiritual nature of the program is as the person understands it. [1] https://www.cochranelibrary.com/cdsr/doi/10.1002/14651858.CD012880.pub2/full https://www.cochranelibrary.com/cdsr/doi/10.1002/14651858.CD...
      - techdragon 4y ago
        The research you cite doesn’t refute criticism of the poor state of US healthcare. It also doesn’t refute the criticism being presented here, that treating the issue as an individual failing doesn’t work for everyone and we need more collective “whole community” approaches, such as decriminalisation, ending the war on drugs rhetoric, serious pushback against excessive force use on cognitively impaired individuals under the influence of drugs who are cooperative but having difficulty complying… and basically an all around general effort to try and stop me the stigmatisation of “drug users” as scum… Because worldwide, on average: most of us drink alcohol or coffee at least occasionally and many do so with regularity; many smoke cigarettes or cigars or hookah’s; some overuse pain medication unnecessarily to keep up with gym routine when they should let their body heal; some smoke weed and others mix the active ingredients into food and drinks for the same sorts of desired reaction; there’s a thriving trade in male sexual enhancement pills which range from unnecessary viagra prescriptions to illegal imports from overseas vendors of otherwise normal pharmaceutical products to “herbal” supplements illegally laced with pharmaceutical grade ingredients not listed on the packaging if the packaging even has a list of ingredients at all; there’s a statically significant number of people who use amyl nitrate for sexual purposes; there’s many people with various medical conditions, such as Narcolepsy and ADHD where the prescription is pharmaceutical grade amphetamines, and they go about their days routinely consuming medicine that were they not prescribed it, would categorically make them under present attitudes towards drug use “drug addicts with serious dependence issues”, I’ve more than once heard a story to the effect of “I thought I was addicted to dex, even tried rehab, turns out I just had ADHD”; there’s people with anxiety and other psychiatric disorders who are prescribed things like benzodiazepines which again have thriving off label use by people without prescriptions when they’re able to get them… We as a species have embraced the idea that you can live “better through chemistry” and that’s not going away because it has roots so deep they stretch back to tribal practices and into prehistory. The idea that there’s a magical list of drugs that are ok and not ok and you should punish people that like the not ok ones, is stupid fairy tail morality and translates about as well to the real world as prohibition of alcohol did in America, except this has worked longer because we exported around the world via treaties and we made a smaller group of people than “everyone who likes to drink alcohol” into the villains of our fairy tale narrative. There are obviously going to be things that should be illegal and laws will need to exist and be enforced, my point is that by encouraging the fairytale morality we’ve had generations of people concentrating power into the hands of groups of people we all have blatantly seem abusing it, and that’s not just about the police it’s about the organised crime and their victims. The whole system is in a slow spiral and it will not get better until we break they pattern. And as for the researchers you cited , they were pretty specifically comparing focused treatment programs that are aimed at the individual not at any sort of social interventions like changing drug policy at the state/national level.

sirsinsalot 4y ago

[flagged]

comfypotato 4y ago
This is offensive and a blatant violation of the HN rules. 12-step programs are definitively unrelated to any religion and well respected by the professional medical community. Various religious institutions around the world host the meetings altruistically, and it has no influence on the fundamental content and purpose of the 12-step programs.
- sirsinsalot 4y ago
  God is mentioned in 4 of the AA 12 steps, as an example. Spirituality/Him or a "higher power" referenced in 7 of them. Don't get me started on the others. It may be respected by the US medical community (and we know how uncommercial and trust worthy that is!) elsewhere we go by science backed systems that aren't just relapse setups. The US health care system has some of the worst statistics in developed nations for prescription addiction, post natal death, infant mortality, death during pregnancy and lots more. Forgive me for thinking you are infact, willfully ignorant. That's my opinion and I can hold it. The psudo-psychology nonsense these schemes peddle is nothing short of 1800s "you've got ghosts in your blood" nonsense. I'm an ex addict.
  - comfypotato 4y ago
    Your mention of the dismal US healthcare system is ad hominem and irrelevant. 12-step programs are empirically superior to any alternative; established by comprehensive literature review [1]. Your “science-backed” implication is utterly false. 12-step literature repeatedly, to exhaustion, emphasizes that the spiritual nature of the program is as the person understands it. [1] https://www.cochranelibrary.com/cdsr/doi/10.1002/14651858.CD012880.pub2/full https://www.cochranelibrary.com/cdsr/doi/10.1002/14651858.CD...
    - techdragon 4y ago
      The research you cite doesn’t refute criticism of the poor state of US healthcare. It also doesn’t refute the criticism being presented here, that treating the issue as an individual failing doesn’t work for everyone and we need more collective “whole community” approaches, such as decriminalisation, ending the war on drugs rhetoric, serious pushback against excessive force use on cognitively impaired individuals under the influence of drugs who are cooperative but having difficulty complying… and basically an all around general effort to try and stop me the stigmatisation of “drug users” as scum… Because worldwide, on average: most of us drink alcohol or coffee at least occasionally and many do so with regularity; many smoke cigarettes or cigars or hookah’s; some overuse pain medication unnecessarily to keep up with gym routine when they should let their body heal; some smoke weed and others mix the active ingredients into food and drinks for the same sorts of desired reaction; there’s a thriving trade in male sexual enhancement pills which range from unnecessary viagra prescriptions to illegal imports from overseas vendors of otherwise normal pharmaceutical products to “herbal” supplements illegally laced with pharmaceutical grade ingredients not listed on the packaging if the packaging even has a list of ingredients at all; there’s a statically significant number of people who use amyl nitrate for sexual purposes; there’s many people with various medical conditions, such as Narcolepsy and ADHD where the prescription is pharmaceutical grade amphetamines, and they go about their days routinely consuming medicine that were they not prescribed it, would categorically make them under present attitudes towards drug use “drug addicts with serious dependence issues”, I’ve more than once heard a story to the effect of “I thought I was addicted to dex, even tried rehab, turns out I just had ADHD”; there’s people with anxiety and other psychiatric disorders who are prescribed things like benzodiazepines which again have thriving off label use by people without prescriptions when they’re able to get them… We as a species have embraced the idea that you can live “better through chemistry” and that’s not going away because it has roots so deep they stretch back to tribal practices and into prehistory. The idea that there’s a magical list of drugs that are ok and not ok and you should punish people that like the not ok ones, is stupid fairy tail morality and translates about as well to the real world as prohibition of alcohol did in America, except this has worked longer because we exported around the world via treaties and we made a smaller group of people than “everyone who likes to drink alcohol” into the villains of our fairy tale narrative. There are obviously going to be things that should be illegal and laws will need to exist and be enforced, my point is that by encouraging the fairytale morality we’ve had generations of people concentrating power into the hands of groups of people we all have blatantly seem abusing it, and that’s not just about the police it’s about the organised crime and their victims. The whole system is in a slow spiral and it will not get better until we break they pattern. And as for the researchers you cited , they were pretty specifically comparing focused treatment programs that are aimed at the individual not at any sort of social interventions like changing drug policy at the state/national level.