5 ms·

> But, it did take optimizing house location/commute, etc To spell the quiet part out loud here, what you're describing is an extreme privilege in a world wher

by _ktx2 4y ago

> But, it did take optimizing house location/commute, etc To spell the quiet part out loud here, what you're describing is an extreme privilege in a world where homes near tech campuses often go for $1M+. New fathers aren't going to have a down payment for even $600k+. Tech at this point starts as a rich persons game which is why so many tech workers intermarry with other wealthy people. It takes two or a trust fund to do what you're talking about early on, unless you want to rent in a place where rents are highly inflated. At that point, you're choosing between a family and any shade of financial freedom.

swsieber 4y ago
> what you're describing is an extreme privilege No, it's not. Working for a huge tech company _and_ doing what's described is an extreme privilege. But working for a huge tech company is a huge privilege in and of itself. And you don't have to work for one of those, at which point doing what's described can become a lot easier.
- WWLink 4y ago
  Yes it is and you're sounding like a condescending asshole by denying it.
  - dahfizz 4y ago
    The majority of Americans commute less than 30 minutes. How is something the majority of people have "extreme privilege"? The idea of a 2 hour commute each way to be gone from 7am to 7pm is a complete fantasy.
    - swsieber 4y ago
      You got me curious about the stats. For one way commute time the mean is 27.6 minutes, and only 22% spend more than 30 minutes. I'd be more interested in median commute time though. https://www.zippia.com/advice/average-commute-time-statistics/ https://www.zippia.com/advice/average-commute-time-statistic... Edit: this has an interactive map of bad commute hotspots! https://www.ridester.com/average-us-commute/ https://www.ridester.com/average-us-commute/
      - laserlight 4y ago
        27.6 minutes sounds absurdly low to me. Getting ready at home, getting in the car, parking it at the destination, and finally walking to my desk takes at least 10 minutes for me. Discounting the overhead doesn't make sense.
        lotsofpulp 4y ago
        Also need to know volatility of the commute time. I would be interested in the range of the commute 95% of the time, rather than the quickest commute in ideal conditions, which is how I bet most responded.
        alistairSH 4y ago
        Getting ready at home doesn't take any longer if you're WFH or going to the office. Gotta shower and wear pants either way. My old commute was 12 mile and consistently <30 minutes each way. My current commute is a 1 mile walk that takes <20 minute. Def. lucked into this - my wife's commute is more typical at 10 miles/20-30 minutes. My dad's old commute was 5 miles/15 minutes. Mom's was similar. Of my friends, 2 commute downtown (Flex Time/hybrid) for .gov positions. I can't think of any that commute more than 30 minutes each direction. Edit - I'll add that almost all of us could take jobs downtown for more money. And either deal with the commute or move into more expensive housing closer in. It's a balance. We're lucky to be in a position to make that balance. But, just about any software developer is going to have that option (except perhaps in SV).
- _ktx2 4y ago
  Both are privileges, but claiming that a remote worker can "just move close to a tech campus and get the same things" is a pitch from left field that requires at least four relays. That was the purpose in calling out that privilege, not to say that no one deserves privilege or that all privileges are the same.
txsoftwaredev 4y ago
I lived in a home no where near that expensive in DFW and commuted 45-60 mins each way when my kids were young. Plenty of places you can work in tech and not own a million dollar house. Even still so today.
- rhino369 4y ago
  45-60 minutes each way is a pretty bad commute.
  - ChuckNorris89 4y ago
    30-60 minute each way is pretty much standard comute where I live in Europe
- kodah 4y ago
  Actually, I moved out of DFW because of my 60 minute each way commute and the average salary of an engineer there. This was some time ago, so things may have changed, but I wouldn't describe DFW (especially in it's current expansive state) as much different given the labor market to real estate value ratio.
dahfizz 4y ago
The average commute in the USA is under 30 minutes. I have no idea where this idea that everyone commutes 2 hours came from, but its completely ridiculous. https://www.census.gov/newsroom/press-releases/2021/one-way-travel-time-to-work-rises.html https://www.census.gov/newsroom/press-releases/2021/one-way-...
- r2_pilot 4y ago
  It's not so ridiculous. Before I had enough work experience to have a job in my local city, I commuted 45 miles/1hr one-way to the next city that actually had tech companies. That was 2 hours commuting total, for 3 years. My roommate climbs cell phone towers. His company is located about 45 minutes to an hour away. Granted, though, he usually only makes the commute once per day then is on the road traveling the rest of the week. Living in the middle of nowhere sucks.
prewett 4y ago
Using "privilege", with its connotation of inherited wealth, and applying it to a profession that pays well above average but is open to anyone--the opposite of inherited wealth--is kind of rhetorically dishonest. Disingenuous at best. It's also out of context, which was that two tech parents were discussing having time for family. There's a strong correlation between expensive homes near tech campuses and tech jobs at tech campuses paying over $150k/yr for someone out of undergrad (if HN reports are correct). And besides, optimizing your location includes choosing both job and location; there are tech jobs that are not in expensive locations, and spending most of one's money on an expensive mortgage to buy free time for family is also an option.
- Viliam1234 4y ago
  > a profession that pays well above average but is open to anyone--the opposite of inherited wealth Technically, you need to inherit the genes that allow you to do this kind of profession successfully.
  - readertime 4y ago
    At that point you may as well lean into the idea that free will is an illusion. It just sort of stops the utility of the discussion (if there even was any).
- yamazakiwi 4y ago
  But it's not open to anyone, open to more people than other prestigious positions but definitely not anyone... there are factors that limit your exposure or ability to perform in these positions obviously.
inconceivable 4y ago
this comment is posted on literally every discussion about money and work on HN. there's always That Guy who points out "won't you think of the people who aren't as x, y, z. don't you know you're privileged! how dare you talk about this!"... this vapid, reflexive concern trolling is tiring and repetitive. so someone will feel bad by reading about your very privileged existence and the fact that you have a job and you're in the market for a house close to your work? is that really the bar we're expected to adhere to? is this actually offensive? insensitive? rude? we don't need to be reminded there are poor people out there. no shit, really? we see it every day. some of us started out that way, some of us are the children of millionaires. so what? i'm not going to self-police what i talk about on the internet just because poor people exist in this world. i don't feel envy or animosity towards the rich or the poor. some poor people get rich, some rich people lose their damn marbles and go to the poor house, dragging entire families down with them - let me guess, you feel no sympathy towards that type of poor person, right? they deserved it, right? either way, life goes on. it's like stating that water is wet or the sky is blue and then chastising people about not mentioning the water and sky when they talk about their new smart phone or laptop. absolutely no value add. it's a non-sequitur. who does this actually help, by pointing this out? nobody is going to accidentally buy a million dollar house with their well compensated corporate job if they're not by definition winning/privileged. we're not selling subprime mortgages here.
- yamazakiwi 4y ago
  Because it is common for people in bubbles to forget, that's the entire point. It should be easy for you to ignore if you've seen it as often as you state. It sounds like you prefer a conversation to be more tailored to your experience, that is normal. In places like HN, a large portion of people live in their bubble and don't see out of it. Bringing up a more common experience is necessary to put a topic in complete context in some cases or at a minimum expands the field of view, it's not meant to make you feel guilt. A part of being human is to point out abnormality, and many times it's done without even a thought. I'm not sure why you're having a melt down, just ignore it if it bothers you. Telling people to stop mentioning their experience isn't going to be constructive and people who WANT to guilt trip you can just fuck right off so don't let it get to you.
alistairSH 4y ago
SV isn't typical. No trust fund here. Parents are immigrants from a farming community in Scotland. I won't deny being more privileged than many, but my socio-economic background was typical professional middle-class (dad=engineer, mom=teacher, own their home, valued education, etc). I live in the heart or Reston VA, work for a reasonably well-known (but not FAANG) company, and bought a typical 4 bed SFH when I was 26 for well under $400 (back in 2004). When my son moved out (2017), we sold that and bought a smaller TH closer to work for under $500 (which is now worth low-$600s). Sure, it's not the latest McMansion and I don't have a garage, but it's more than adequate. Is that option available to an hourly retail employee? No, probably not. But, it's certainly available to just about any white-collar couple in the area.
- kodah 4y ago
  > But, it's certainly available to just about any white-collar couple in the area. That qualifies as one of the things that I described as a privilege. Making the assumption that two white collar people are married isn't great. Also, frankly, if you bought in 2004 then you were part of an explosion of equity nation wide. People who are initially buying in in the twenty teens are in a very different market. I do agree that SV isn't typical, but I wouldn't say that's a reason to write off what I said.

by _ktx2 4y ago

swsieber 4y ago

> what you're describing is an extreme privilege No, it's not. Working for a huge tech company _and_ doing what's described is an extreme privilege. But working for a huge tech company is a huge privilege in and of itself. And you don't have to work for one of those, at which point doing what's described can become a lot easier.

WWLink 4y ago
Yes it is and you're sounding like a condescending asshole by denying it.
- dahfizz 4y ago
  The majority of Americans commute less than 30 minutes. How is something the majority of people have "extreme privilege"? The idea of a 2 hour commute each way to be gone from 7am to 7pm is a complete fantasy.
  - swsieber 4y ago
    You got me curious about the stats. For one way commute time the mean is 27.6 minutes, and only 22% spend more than 30 minutes. I'd be more interested in median commute time though. https://www.zippia.com/advice/average-commute-time-statistics/ https://www.zippia.com/advice/average-commute-time-statistic... Edit: this has an interactive map of bad commute hotspots! https://www.ridester.com/average-us-commute/ https://www.ridester.com/average-us-commute/
    - laserlight 4y ago
      27.6 minutes sounds absurdly low to me. Getting ready at home, getting in the car, parking it at the destination, and finally walking to my desk takes at least 10 minutes for me. Discounting the overhead doesn't make sense.
      - lotsofpulp 4y ago
        Also need to know volatility of the commute time. I would be interested in the range of the commute 95% of the time, rather than the quickest commute in ideal conditions, which is how I bet most responded.
      - alistairSH 4y ago
        Getting ready at home doesn't take any longer if you're WFH or going to the office. Gotta shower and wear pants either way. My old commute was 12 mile and consistently <30 minutes each way. My current commute is a 1 mile walk that takes <20 minute. Def. lucked into this - my wife's commute is more typical at 10 miles/20-30 minutes. My dad's old commute was 5 miles/15 minutes. Mom's was similar. Of my friends, 2 commute downtown (Flex Time/hybrid) for .gov positions. I can't think of any that commute more than 30 minutes each direction. Edit - I'll add that almost all of us could take jobs downtown for more money. And either deal with the commute or move into more expensive housing closer in. It's a balance. We're lucky to be in a position to make that balance. But, just about any software developer is going to have that option (except perhaps in SV).
_ktx2 4y ago
Both are privileges, but claiming that a remote worker can "just move close to a tech campus and get the same things" is a pitch from left field that requires at least four relays. That was the purpose in calling out that privilege, not to say that no one deserves privilege or that all privileges are the same.

txsoftwaredev 4y ago

I lived in a home no where near that expensive in DFW and commuted 45-60 mins each way when my kids were young. Plenty of places you can work in tech and not own a million dollar house. Even still so today.

rhino369 4y ago
45-60 minutes each way is a pretty bad commute.
- ChuckNorris89 4y ago
  30-60 minute each way is pretty much standard comute where I live in Europe
kodah 4y ago
Actually, I moved out of DFW because of my 60 minute each way commute and the average salary of an engineer there. This was some time ago, so things may have changed, but I wouldn't describe DFW (especially in it's current expansive state) as much different given the labor market to real estate value ratio.

dahfizz 4y ago

The average commute in the USA is under 30 minutes. I have no idea where this idea that everyone commutes 2 hours came from, but its completely ridiculous. https://www.census.gov/newsroom/press-releases/2021/one-way-travel-time-to-work-rises.html https://www.census.gov/newsroom/press-releases/2021/one-way-...

r2_pilot 4y ago
It's not so ridiculous. Before I had enough work experience to have a job in my local city, I commuted 45 miles/1hr one-way to the next city that actually had tech companies. That was 2 hours commuting total, for 3 years. My roommate climbs cell phone towers. His company is located about 45 minutes to an hour away. Granted, though, he usually only makes the commute once per day then is on the road traveling the rest of the week. Living in the middle of nowhere sucks.

prewett 4y ago

Using "privilege", with its connotation of inherited wealth, and applying it to a profession that pays well above average but is open to anyone--the opposite of inherited wealth--is kind of rhetorically dishonest. Disingenuous at best. It's also out of context, which was that two tech parents were discussing having time for family. There's a strong correlation between expensive homes near tech campuses and tech jobs at tech campuses paying over $150k/yr for someone out of undergrad (if HN reports are correct). And besides, optimizing your location includes choosing both job and location; there are tech jobs that are not in expensive locations, and spending most of one's money on an expensive mortgage to buy free time for family is also an option.

Viliam1234 4y ago
> a profession that pays well above average but is open to anyone--the opposite of inherited wealth Technically, you need to inherit the genes that allow you to do this kind of profession successfully.
- readertime 4y ago
  At that point you may as well lean into the idea that free will is an illusion. It just sort of stops the utility of the discussion (if there even was any).
yamazakiwi 4y ago
But it's not open to anyone, open to more people than other prestigious positions but definitely not anyone... there are factors that limit your exposure or ability to perform in these positions obviously.

inconceivable 4y ago

this comment is posted on literally every discussion about money and work on HN. there's always That Guy who points out "won't you think of the people who aren't as x, y, z. don't you know you're privileged! how dare you talk about this!"... this vapid, reflexive concern trolling is tiring and repetitive. so someone will feel bad by reading about your very privileged existence and the fact that you have a job and you're in the market for a house close to your work? is that really the bar we're expected to adhere to? is this actually offensive? insensitive? rude? we don't need to be reminded there are poor people out there. no shit, really? we see it every day. some of us started out that way, some of us are the children of millionaires. so what? i'm not going to self-police what i talk about on the internet just because poor people exist in this world. i don't feel envy or animosity towards the rich or the poor. some poor people get rich, some rich people lose their damn marbles and go to the poor house, dragging entire families down with them - let me guess, you feel no sympathy towards that type of poor person, right? they deserved it, right? either way, life goes on. it's like stating that water is wet or the sky is blue and then chastising people about not mentioning the water and sky when they talk about their new smart phone or laptop. absolutely no value add. it's a non-sequitur. who does this actually help, by pointing this out? nobody is going to accidentally buy a million dollar house with their well compensated corporate job if they're not by definition winning/privileged. we're not selling subprime mortgages here.

yamazakiwi 4y ago
Because it is common for people in bubbles to forget, that's the entire point. It should be easy for you to ignore if you've seen it as often as you state. It sounds like you prefer a conversation to be more tailored to your experience, that is normal. In places like HN, a large portion of people live in their bubble and don't see out of it. Bringing up a more common experience is necessary to put a topic in complete context in some cases or at a minimum expands the field of view, it's not meant to make you feel guilt. A part of being human is to point out abnormality, and many times it's done without even a thought. I'm not sure why you're having a melt down, just ignore it if it bothers you. Telling people to stop mentioning their experience isn't going to be constructive and people who WANT to guilt trip you can just fuck right off so don't let it get to you.

alistairSH 4y ago

SV isn't typical. No trust fund here. Parents are immigrants from a farming community in Scotland. I won't deny being more privileged than many, but my socio-economic background was typical professional middle-class (dad=engineer, mom=teacher, own their home, valued education, etc). I live in the heart or Reston VA, work for a reasonably well-known (but not FAANG) company, and bought a typical 4 bed SFH when I was 26 for well under $400 (back in 2004). When my son moved out (2017), we sold that and bought a smaller TH closer to work for under $500 (which is now worth low-$600s). Sure, it's not the latest McMansion and I don't have a garage, but it's more than adequate. Is that option available to an hourly retail employee? No, probably not. But, it's certainly available to just about any white-collar couple in the area.

kodah 4y ago
> But, it's certainly available to just about any white-collar couple in the area. That qualifies as one of the things that I described as a privilege. Making the assumption that two white collar people are married isn't great. Also, frankly, if you bought in 2004 then you were part of an explosion of equity nation wide. People who are initially buying in in the twenty teens are in a very different market. I do agree that SV isn't typical, but I wouldn't say that's a reason to write off what I said.