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Not German, but a few things that have creeped me out about Germany's lack of privacy after hearing from people who live there are: [edit: As pointed out by va

Not German, but a few things that have creeped me out about Germany's lack of privacy after hearing from people who live there are: [edit: As pointed out by various commenters below, some of these might not be technically true, or have outs, such as being able to go back home to show your ID. My hypothesis is that common official workflows lead to these perceptions from the outside, e.g. As a foreigner in a country, if an official asks you "Where is your anmeldung?", you are not very likely to challenge them back and say "Actually, it's not required, please use the workflow that allows for absence of one."] - You have to register your current address with the local authorities (anmeldung) after moving into a new place. By itself this seems fine, but it also seems to bea prerequisite for a lot of life necessities like getting health insurance and a mobile phone number. - If you are in Germany and run a website, you need to have an Impressum on your website that states your address. So you are pretty much auto-doxxed every time you decide to maintain a personal website or blog. I am not sure how much this is enforced. - There is a "Stop and Identify" law (Personalausweisgesetz) that requires you to be in possession of an identity document, and hand it over when asked to by any authorities, with substantial fines for noncompliance. - From my own experience as a visitor, Wi-Fi portals always seem to have a great deal of personal data entry before you can get on the Internet. Apparently there were previously laws that put a great deal of liability on whoever ran a Wi-Fi network, which meant that businesses were naturally loathe to offer one. It would be interesting to me as well to hear from Germans who grew up with these, and how they perceive their impact on privacy.

deleted 4y ago
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izacus 4y ago
Laws 1-3 are pretty standard across central Europe and I don't think anyone really gives them a second thought (and make things in many cases easier - like anmeldung making sure that voter registration and other important correspondence finds its way to people automatically). The one about carrying an ID card at all times is creepy, but it also shows how the concept of "privacy" is a very personal thing for which different people have different tresholds.
- 9dev 4y ago
  This is an ages-old hoax: You don't need to carry an ID card. If you don't carry one but a police officer requests you to identify yourself, they can decide to accompany you to the place you keep your ID card at (at home, for example).
rpadovani 4y ago
> - You have to register your current address with the local authorities (anmeldung) after moving into a new place. By itself this seems fine, but it also seems to bea prerequisite for a lot of life necessities like getting health insurance and a mobile phone number. True. However, this is the case at least in CH and IT as well (in IT you will probably have also a visit from the local police to check that the place is up to some standards), I grow up thinking this was common in EU - isn't it? > If you are in Germany and run a website, you need to have an Impressum on your website that states your address. Kinda: if you run a _commercial_ website. My blog doesn't have my address. > - There is a "Stop and Identify" law (Personalausweisgesetz) that requires you to be in possession of an identity document, and hand it over instantly when asked to by any authorities, with substantial fines for noncompliance. There is no mandate to have the ID card with you in Germany. In Italy there is. You must provide your identity to the authority over request, but you can also have your ID at home. > - Wi-Fi portals always seem to have a great deal of personal data entry before you can get on the Internet. Apparently there were previously laws that put a great deal of liability on whoever ran a Wi-Fi network, which meant that businesses were naturally loathe to offer one. True and incredibly annoying. Things have slowly improved, but a lot still request too much data.
hef19898 4y ago
Some corrections so: - you have to be able to identify yourself within 24 hours, usually at the nearest police station. As a matter of convenience, most people just carry their ID with them. - registering your address also serves as registering for stuff like voting. As a matter of fact, you need some kind of address, wherever that is. Apparently you can register somewhat generically, e.g. digital nomads travelling in their vans ehich are registered in Germany, just don't ask me how - most hosting companies offer generic impressum addresses for websites to avoid exactly that, I know because I used those. As soon as you run a company, the company address as well as the name of the managing director become public record. Again, ome can use a "letter box" address, say your tax advisor, as a work around. You make it worse than it really is, and simultanously miss all the bad stuff going on...
- quadrifoliate 4y ago
  > You make it worse than it really is, and simultanously miss all the bad stuff going on... I am sure that I am making it seem worse than it is, which is why I asked for views from people who grew up with these laws. As a first-generation immigrant American, a lot of things that shock me about laws and culture in the US are quite natural to people who grew up here (the most obvious example being guns) -- so I'm sure that the case in Germany would be similar. I am curious though, what do you view as "all the bad stuff going on" with regards to privacy?
  - hef19898 4y ago
    The Bavarian police law, latest edition, comes to mind.
DocTomoe 4y ago
German living in Germany > - You have to register your current address with the local authorities (anmeldung) after moving into a new place. Yeah. I do not see a problem with that. In fact, I like the idea of an identity being linked to a location, it makes scamming harder. > - If you are in Germany and run a website, you need to have an Impressum on your website that states your address. So you are pretty much auto-doxxed every time you decide to maintain a personal website or blog. I am not sure how much this is enforced. 1. That is not entirely true: purely personal websites do not need an Impressum. 2. This is not enforced by the state, but by competitors (not having an Impressum is considered bad competitive practice). 3. The Impressum makes sense once you understand we treat websites like we treat newspapers (which have similar requirements), or flyers (which also have such requirements). > - There is a "Stop and Identify" law (Personalausweisgesetz) that requires you to be in possession of an identity document, and hand it over instantly when asked to by any authorities, with substantial fines for noncompliance. This is not true. You must own an ID document (either a personal ID card, or a passport). Nowhere does it say you need to carry it around with you. When stopped, you can be held until your id can be verified (which takes about 5 minutes without an ID document, or 3 with one). > - Wi-Fi portals always seem to have a great deal of personal data entry before you can get on the Internet. Apparently there were previously laws that put a great deal of liability on whoever ran a Wi-Fi network, which meant that businesses were naturally loathe to offer one. Hm, whenever I am abroad (UK, France, Spain, Morocco), public WiFi seems to be a lot more restrictive and a lot more nosey than German public WiFi, so YMMV...
dgellow 4y ago
The registration to local administration has to do with taxes, voting, social security stuff, etc. Isn’t it the case everywhere? I lived in 3 different countries across Europe and Asia (and in Germany since a while now) and that has always been something I had to do. I’m not sure how else your local administration can do its job without knowing who live there. Same with ID cards, you’re expected to always be able to prove your identity if asked by the police. The impressum is only for businesses. I don’t really see what that has to do with privacy laws.
- jonp888 4y ago
  There is no address registration in the UK, for instance. It works OK for most people. British people are very opposed to it or to ID cards, despite that fact that it being OK to live in there with no ID whatsoever makes it attractive for illegal immigrants, which they are also opposed to. - You have to specifically register your address on a special list for voting purposes. If you don't, you can't vote. - Payroll taxes are for almost all people done automatically and there is no benefit to doing an individual tax return. Your employer handles the tax communication and informs the tax authorities of your address. - Property taxes get sent to the address, regardless of who lives there. - The health service is not insurance based, all residents are automatically covered, so they don't need your contact details. - For anything else(pension, driving license etc.) you have to notify them individually and if you don't, that's your problem. There are no restrictions like having to take the driving test in the city you live in.
  - izacus 4y ago
    So basically it's just bunch of extra work for everyone while also functioning as voter supression just like in US? Seems like Germans do a good tradeoff.
  - dgellow 4y ago
    Regarding the payroll taxes, that sounds more or less similar to what you have in Germany, but instead of the employer giving your address to the tax office, you register yourself to the local administration and provide your personal tax ID to the employer, and you’re taxed at the source. Effectively the result is the same, the government knows your address for administrative reasons.
PurpleRamen 4y ago
> a lot of life necessities like getting health insurance and a mobile phone number. For the mobile phone number you must identify yourself, the pretext is terror-prevention, not sure how true this really is. But usually they just check the passport, the address is not really relevant. > If you are in Germany and run a website, you need to have an Impressum on your website that states your address. You need an Impressum if you run a business, meaning you earn money with it. This could already be the case if you have ads. For a purely private site, an Impressum is unneccessary. > There is a "Stop and Identify" law (Personalausweisgesetz) that requires you to be in possession of an identity document, and hand it over instantly when asked to by any authorities, with substantial fines for noncompliance. This is a bit misleading. You need to be able to identify yourself, but not instantly. You can have your documents at home, and they either will ignore you, or drive you home, depending you their reasons and the moonphase, and so on.
jonp888 4y ago
1) Since there is Freedom of Movement and no border checks in the European Union, the only way to determine where someone is actually resident is if they register it. Health Insurance is mandatory in Germany. I am would have thought an American health insurance provider would also want to know someone is actually resident in America before they signed them up. 2) Only for businesses. It seems pretty sensible to me that someone who is taking money in return for the future delivery of a product or service should have some legally watertight method of contact, and not just an e-mail address which might bounce, or a contact form. You also only have to identify the person who is willing to be the legal contact for the content, it doesn't have to be the actual owner/author. 3) As said by others, you only have to produce it later, not on the spot. In some countries the idea of a mandatory ID is anathema, but as I see it modern society is not really possible without proof of ID, and countries which insist on not issuing ID documents effectively end up with an poor unofficial substitute. In the US the driving license and SSN is effectively the mandatory form of ID, it just isn't very good at it since it wasn't designed to be one.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

izacus 4y ago

Laws 1-3 are pretty standard across central Europe and I don't think anyone really gives them a second thought (and make things in many cases easier - like anmeldung making sure that voter registration and other important correspondence finds its way to people automatically). The one about carrying an ID card at all times is creepy, but it also shows how the concept of "privacy" is a very personal thing for which different people have different tresholds.

9dev 4y ago
This is an ages-old hoax: You don't need to carry an ID card. If you don't carry one but a police officer requests you to identify yourself, they can decide to accompany you to the place you keep your ID card at (at home, for example).

rpadovani 4y ago

> - You have to register your current address with the local authorities (anmeldung) after moving into a new place. By itself this seems fine, but it also seems to bea prerequisite for a lot of life necessities like getting health insurance and a mobile phone number. True. However, this is the case at least in CH and IT as well (in IT you will probably have also a visit from the local police to check that the place is up to some standards), I grow up thinking this was common in EU - isn't it? > If you are in Germany and run a website, you need to have an Impressum on your website that states your address. Kinda: if you run a _commercial_ website. My blog doesn't have my address. > - There is a "Stop and Identify" law (Personalausweisgesetz) that requires you to be in possession of an identity document, and hand it over instantly when asked to by any authorities, with substantial fines for noncompliance. There is no mandate to have the ID card with you in Germany. In Italy there is. You must provide your identity to the authority over request, but you can also have your ID at home. > - Wi-Fi portals always seem to have a great deal of personal data entry before you can get on the Internet. Apparently there were previously laws that put a great deal of liability on whoever ran a Wi-Fi network, which meant that businesses were naturally loathe to offer one. True and incredibly annoying. Things have slowly improved, but a lot still request too much data.

hef19898 4y ago

Some corrections so: - you have to be able to identify yourself within 24 hours, usually at the nearest police station. As a matter of convenience, most people just carry their ID with them. - registering your address also serves as registering for stuff like voting. As a matter of fact, you need some kind of address, wherever that is. Apparently you can register somewhat generically, e.g. digital nomads travelling in their vans ehich are registered in Germany, just don't ask me how - most hosting companies offer generic impressum addresses for websites to avoid exactly that, I know because I used those. As soon as you run a company, the company address as well as the name of the managing director become public record. Again, ome can use a "letter box" address, say your tax advisor, as a work around. You make it worse than it really is, and simultanously miss all the bad stuff going on...

quadrifoliate 4y ago
> You make it worse than it really is, and simultanously miss all the bad stuff going on... I am sure that I am making it seem worse than it is, which is why I asked for views from people who grew up with these laws. As a first-generation immigrant American, a lot of things that shock me about laws and culture in the US are quite natural to people who grew up here (the most obvious example being guns) -- so I'm sure that the case in Germany would be similar. I am curious though, what do you view as "all the bad stuff going on" with regards to privacy?
- hef19898 4y ago
  The Bavarian police law, latest edition, comes to mind.

DocTomoe 4y ago

German living in Germany > - You have to register your current address with the local authorities (anmeldung) after moving into a new place. Yeah. I do not see a problem with that. In fact, I like the idea of an identity being linked to a location, it makes scamming harder. > - If you are in Germany and run a website, you need to have an Impressum on your website that states your address. So you are pretty much auto-doxxed every time you decide to maintain a personal website or blog. I am not sure how much this is enforced. 1. That is not entirely true: purely personal websites do not need an Impressum. 2. This is not enforced by the state, but by competitors (not having an Impressum is considered bad competitive practice). 3. The Impressum makes sense once you understand we treat websites like we treat newspapers (which have similar requirements), or flyers (which also have such requirements). > - There is a "Stop and Identify" law (Personalausweisgesetz) that requires you to be in possession of an identity document, and hand it over instantly when asked to by any authorities, with substantial fines for noncompliance. This is not true. You must own an ID document (either a personal ID card, or a passport). Nowhere does it say you need to carry it around with you. When stopped, you can be held until your id can be verified (which takes about 5 minutes without an ID document, or 3 with one). > - Wi-Fi portals always seem to have a great deal of personal data entry before you can get on the Internet. Apparently there were previously laws that put a great deal of liability on whoever ran a Wi-Fi network, which meant that businesses were naturally loathe to offer one. Hm, whenever I am abroad (UK, France, Spain, Morocco), public WiFi seems to be a lot more restrictive and a lot more nosey than German public WiFi, so YMMV...

dgellow 4y ago

The registration to local administration has to do with taxes, voting, social security stuff, etc. Isn’t it the case everywhere? I lived in 3 different countries across Europe and Asia (and in Germany since a while now) and that has always been something I had to do. I’m not sure how else your local administration can do its job without knowing who live there. Same with ID cards, you’re expected to always be able to prove your identity if asked by the police. The impressum is only for businesses. I don’t really see what that has to do with privacy laws.

jonp888 4y ago
There is no address registration in the UK, for instance. It works OK for most people. British people are very opposed to it or to ID cards, despite that fact that it being OK to live in there with no ID whatsoever makes it attractive for illegal immigrants, which they are also opposed to. - You have to specifically register your address on a special list for voting purposes. If you don't, you can't vote. - Payroll taxes are for almost all people done automatically and there is no benefit to doing an individual tax return. Your employer handles the tax communication and informs the tax authorities of your address. - Property taxes get sent to the address, regardless of who lives there. - The health service is not insurance based, all residents are automatically covered, so they don't need your contact details. - For anything else(pension, driving license etc.) you have to notify them individually and if you don't, that's your problem. There are no restrictions like having to take the driving test in the city you live in.
- izacus 4y ago
  So basically it's just bunch of extra work for everyone while also functioning as voter supression just like in US? Seems like Germans do a good tradeoff.
- dgellow 4y ago
  Regarding the payroll taxes, that sounds more or less similar to what you have in Germany, but instead of the employer giving your address to the tax office, you register yourself to the local administration and provide your personal tax ID to the employer, and you’re taxed at the source. Effectively the result is the same, the government knows your address for administrative reasons.

PurpleRamen 4y ago

> a lot of life necessities like getting health insurance and a mobile phone number. For the mobile phone number you must identify yourself, the pretext is terror-prevention, not sure how true this really is. But usually they just check the passport, the address is not really relevant. > If you are in Germany and run a website, you need to have an Impressum on your website that states your address. You need an Impressum if you run a business, meaning you earn money with it. This could already be the case if you have ads. For a purely private site, an Impressum is unneccessary. > There is a "Stop and Identify" law (Personalausweisgesetz) that requires you to be in possession of an identity document, and hand it over instantly when asked to by any authorities, with substantial fines for noncompliance. This is a bit misleading. You need to be able to identify yourself, but not instantly. You can have your documents at home, and they either will ignore you, or drive you home, depending you their reasons and the moonphase, and so on.

jonp888 4y ago

1) Since there is Freedom of Movement and no border checks in the European Union, the only way to determine where someone is actually resident is if they register it. Health Insurance is mandatory in Germany. I am would have thought an American health insurance provider would also want to know someone is actually resident in America before they signed them up. 2) Only for businesses. It seems pretty sensible to me that someone who is taking money in return for the future delivery of a product or service should have some legally watertight method of contact, and not just an e-mail address which might bounce, or a contact form. You also only have to identify the person who is willing to be the legal contact for the content, it doesn't have to be the actual owner/author. 3) As said by others, you only have to produce it later, not on the spot. In some countries the idea of a mandatory ID is anathema, but as I see it modern society is not really possible without proof of ID, and countries which insist on not issuing ID documents effectively end up with an poor unofficial substitute. In the US the driving license and SSN is effectively the mandatory form of ID, it just isn't very good at it since it wasn't designed to be one.