3 ms·

Care to share examples? Not saying you're wrong, genuinely curious about specifics.

by thenaturalist 4y ago

aa-jv 4y ago
You can start by pulling the thread on who runs Germanys' intelligence services ..
- thenaturalist 4y ago
  Who does? Sorry, but I can't really learn anything from such a vague reply.
  - aa-jv 4y ago
    The US' intelligence agencies do.
    - eastendguy 4y ago
      And your source for this statement is which Telegram group?
      - hef19898 4y ago
        It seems the source sits on the management board of the BRD GmbH...
    - thenaturalist 4y ago
      So looking at the history of (West) Germany post WW2 with the country entering NATO, significant US military presence and essentially being the border country to the Soviet block, I think it's reasonable that there is a veritable historical root for a significant US intelligence agency influence on the structure of Germany's intelligence service as well as lenient laws towards US intelligence services operating within Germany. Not really surprising given the Cold War history in my book. I also think it's credible that some of these close ties were kept way past "expiration", who likes to give up privileges, esp. as an intelligence service. As a matter of fact though, looking at the long list of intelligence service scandals, there has been more and more light shed on these tricks by parliament and a free press since the 2010s [0]. Also, there was a law past in 2016 after the NSA revelations increasing control and limiting capabilities of the BND [1]. So while going back 30+ years I am inclined to go with your statement, I can't find objective evidence, hints, whatsoever, that this is still true. With all that being said, as a German citizen, I'd much rather be allied with US intelligence services than Chinese or Russian ones. Yes, it's a dragnet, yes it's a hassle to protect your privacy effectively, yes intelligence services are no lambs and always play by the books. But let's not kid ourselves, both Germany and the US are pretty free countries for their citizens? [0]: For example for a critical opinion of the NSA <> BND relationship, which is also being itself critized by other experts https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Globale_%C3%9Cberwachungs-_und_Spionageaff%C3%A4re#Einsch%C3%A4tzungen_des_Historikers_Josef_Foschepoth https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Globale_%C3%9Cberwachungs-_und... [1]: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gesetz_zur_Ausland-Ausland-Fernmeldeaufkl%C3%A4rung_des_Bundesnachrichtendienstes https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gesetz_zur_Ausland-Ausland-Fer...
      - aa-jv 4y ago
        >But let's not kid ourselves, both Germany and the US are pretty free countries for their citizens? Julian Assange has entered the chat. Oh no, wait, he hasn't, because he's being chemically lobotomized by the very criminals whose crimes he revealed to the world ..
quadrifoliate 4y ago
Not German, but a few things that have creeped me out about Germany's lack of privacy after hearing from people who live there are: [edit: As pointed out by various commenters below, some of these might not be technically true, or have outs, such as being able to go back home to show your ID. My hypothesis is that common official workflows lead to these perceptions from the outside, e.g. As a foreigner in a country, if an official asks you "Where is your anmeldung?", you are not very likely to challenge them back and say "Actually, it's not required, please use the workflow that allows for absence of one."] - You have to register your current address with the local authorities (anmeldung) after moving into a new place. By itself this seems fine, but it also seems to bea prerequisite for a lot of life necessities like getting health insurance and a mobile phone number. - If you are in Germany and run a website, you need to have an Impressum on your website that states your address. So you are pretty much auto-doxxed every time you decide to maintain a personal website or blog. I am not sure how much this is enforced. - There is a "Stop and Identify" law (Personalausweisgesetz) that requires you to be in possession of an identity document, and hand it over when asked to by any authorities, with substantial fines for noncompliance. - From my own experience as a visitor, Wi-Fi portals always seem to have a great deal of personal data entry before you can get on the Internet. Apparently there were previously laws that put a great deal of liability on whoever ran a Wi-Fi network, which meant that businesses were naturally loathe to offer one. It would be interesting to me as well to hear from Germans who grew up with these, and how they perceive their impact on privacy.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- izacus 4y ago
  Laws 1-3 are pretty standard across central Europe and I don't think anyone really gives them a second thought (and make things in many cases easier - like anmeldung making sure that voter registration and other important correspondence finds its way to people automatically). The one about carrying an ID card at all times is creepy, but it also shows how the concept of "privacy" is a very personal thing for which different people have different tresholds.

Care to share examples? Not saying you're wrong, genuinely curious about specifics.

aa-jv 4y ago

You can start by pulling the thread on who runs Germanys' intelligence services ..

thenaturalist 4y ago
Who does? Sorry, but I can't really learn anything from such a vague reply.
- aa-jv 4y ago
  The US' intelligence agencies do.
  - eastendguy 4y ago
    And your source for this statement is which Telegram group?
    - hef19898 4y ago
      It seems the source sits on the management board of the BRD GmbH...
  - thenaturalist 4y ago
    So looking at the history of (West) Germany post WW2 with the country entering NATO, significant US military presence and essentially being the border country to the Soviet block, I think it's reasonable that there is a veritable historical root for a significant US intelligence agency influence on the structure of Germany's intelligence service as well as lenient laws towards US intelligence services operating within Germany. Not really surprising given the Cold War history in my book. I also think it's credible that some of these close ties were kept way past "expiration", who likes to give up privileges, esp. as an intelligence service. As a matter of fact though, looking at the long list of intelligence service scandals, there has been more and more light shed on these tricks by parliament and a free press since the 2010s [0]. Also, there was a law past in 2016 after the NSA revelations increasing control and limiting capabilities of the BND [1]. So while going back 30+ years I am inclined to go with your statement, I can't find objective evidence, hints, whatsoever, that this is still true. With all that being said, as a German citizen, I'd much rather be allied with US intelligence services than Chinese or Russian ones. Yes, it's a dragnet, yes it's a hassle to protect your privacy effectively, yes intelligence services are no lambs and always play by the books. But let's not kid ourselves, both Germany and the US are pretty free countries for their citizens? [0]: For example for a critical opinion of the NSA <> BND relationship, which is also being itself critized by other experts https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Globale_%C3%9Cberwachungs-_und_Spionageaff%C3%A4re#Einsch%C3%A4tzungen_des_Historikers_Josef_Foschepoth https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Globale_%C3%9Cberwachungs-_und... [1]: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gesetz_zur_Ausland-Ausland-Fernmeldeaufkl%C3%A4rung_des_Bundesnachrichtendienstes https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gesetz_zur_Ausland-Ausland-Fer...
    - aa-jv 4y ago
      >But let's not kid ourselves, both Germany and the US are pretty free countries for their citizens? Julian Assange has entered the chat. Oh no, wait, he hasn't, because he's being chemically lobotomized by the very criminals whose crimes he revealed to the world ..

quadrifoliate 4y ago

Not German, but a few things that have creeped me out about Germany's lack of privacy after hearing from people who live there are: [edit: As pointed out by various commenters below, some of these might not be technically true, or have outs, such as being able to go back home to show your ID. My hypothesis is that common official workflows lead to these perceptions from the outside, e.g. As a foreigner in a country, if an official asks you "Where is your anmeldung?", you are not very likely to challenge them back and say "Actually, it's not required, please use the workflow that allows for absence of one."] - You have to register your current address with the local authorities (anmeldung) after moving into a new place. By itself this seems fine, but it also seems to bea prerequisite for a lot of life necessities like getting health insurance and a mobile phone number. - If you are in Germany and run a website, you need to have an Impressum on your website that states your address. So you are pretty much auto-doxxed every time you decide to maintain a personal website or blog. I am not sure how much this is enforced. - There is a "Stop and Identify" law (Personalausweisgesetz) that requires you to be in possession of an identity document, and hand it over when asked to by any authorities, with substantial fines for noncompliance. - From my own experience as a visitor, Wi-Fi portals always seem to have a great deal of personal data entry before you can get on the Internet. Apparently there were previously laws that put a great deal of liability on whoever ran a Wi-Fi network, which meant that businesses were naturally loathe to offer one. It would be interesting to me as well to hear from Germans who grew up with these, and how they perceive their impact on privacy.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
izacus 4y ago
Laws 1-3 are pretty standard across central Europe and I don't think anyone really gives them a second thought (and make things in many cases easier - like anmeldung making sure that voter registration and other important correspondence finds its way to people automatically). The one about carrying an ID card at all times is creepy, but it also shows how the concept of "privacy" is a very personal thing for which different people have different tresholds.