5 ms·

Hi there, could you be more specific, or could you provide any sources related to your claims?

ChuckNorris89 4y ago
Not him, but what I assume he's referring to is the usual cases in Germany where if you torrent a book, a movie, or an mp3 without a VPN, you'll instantly be served a threatening letter from the likes of GEMA, Axel-Springer, or some independent law firm who have your info from your ISP who tracks you, and they'll ask you to pay a fine for your illegal copyright violation or they'll threaten to take you to court on behalf of the film & record companies, where some 80 year old boomer judge who doesn't understand how the internet works, will instantly side with Axel-Springer because they're an old, big, rich, respected German corporation with reputable lawyers who have a history with the judge, and you're not. Reddit is chock full of expats in Germany who got burned by this. And also the locals, but rare because they know how the system works. In Germany it's difficult to defend yourself in court against copyright bullying from big corporations if you don't have deep pockets for a top lawyer, as there's no jury trials, nor double jeopardy, like in the US, so you're at the mercy of a major corporation with unlimited money and an old judge who has read about the internet in the newspaper, so people will instantly fold and stop what they're doing and pay whatever bullshit fine they're issued even when they do nothing illegal because paying the fine is cheaper than battling in court. Honestly, Americans take for granted some of the freedoms they have online and in their justice system. Look up the case of Axel-Springer suing the company that created AdBlock. Luckily Axel lost the first round[1], but it's scary how bold these companies are in Germany as many private individuals don't have the means to defend themselves in curt against such an entity. [1] https://digiday.com/media/axel-springer-reinvigorates-legal-fight-ad-blocking/ https://digiday.com/media/axel-springer-reinvigorates-legal-...
- miroljub 4y ago
  This is the wrong example. The fact is that there is a whole industry in Germany that whose only purpose is to find out something illegal you did and then sue you doesn't change the fact that piracy is still illegal in Germany. According to German, and many other law systems, piracy is stealing, it's just that in Germany they are enforcing it strictly thanks to those private firms. There's no such thing as "downloading an mp3 or a book" by an accident. You know that you are downloading something illegally. And that 80-year-old judge understands something you don't, that the internet is a neutral medium which doesn't make local laws void just because "you downloaded it from the internet".
  - expertentipp 4y ago
    > There's no such thing as "downloading an mp3 or a book" by an accident Dude, you can install software fully hijacking your device by clicking or tapping a link. You have mobile and computer operating systems by default displaying "news" with links to ads and scams.
    - 9dev 4y ago
      "It really isn't my fault Mr. judge, this evil virus downloaded the second volume of 50 Shades of Grey totally against my will!" Are you actually being serious?
      - expertentipp 4y ago
        Yes you get it! The humiliation factor. If it's related to sexuality, the victim can be pushed and squashed even further. One doesn't even have to download the movie, it's enough to share 32kb of it!
- 9dev 4y ago
  As a sibling comment said, you're completely ignoring that torrenting a movie, a book, or any other copyright-protected media is plain and simply illegal. You may not like having to pay for stuff, but that's how the economy works. If you break those laws, it's not really the judges fault, but yours? In Germany you can at least expect a fair trial that isn't overturned by the lawyer that is better at manipulating the jury's emotions...
  - ChuckNorris89 4y ago
    > In Germany you can at least expect a fair trial that isn't overturned by the lawyer that is better at manipulating the jury's emotions. Man, I'd love to see the first jury that sides with the evil megacorp and not the 19 year old who downloaded an mp3, like every member of the jury who had a childhood. I'd pay to see that.
- CodexArcana 4y ago
  Sounds like my experience in the US. I haven't had the desire to pirate anything since the rise of streaming, but there was a time where getting "caught" was never a concern. Then around 2010 I think, you would get a threatening letter from your ISP saying they would ban you from their service, which included the content you downloaded. Considering the monopoly these ISPs have on their service areas that effectively meant a total ban from internet access.
- admissionsguy 4y ago
  > Honestly, Americans take for granted some of the freedoms they have in their justice system. Torrenting is a weird example to argue, but I definitely agree with the quoted sentiment. Americans tend to (perhaps justly) complain about the costs of standing up to big corporations (or the government) in courts, but in continental Europe there is absolutely no option to have a case against a corporation judged solely on its merits as the judge will be immensely biased to favour the larger, more "respected" entity.
  - thenaturalist 4y ago
    > but in continental Europe there is absolutely no option to have a case against a corporation judged solely on its merits as the judge will be immensely biased to favour the larger, more "respected" entity. Your sweeping generalization is especially ironic here, as the parent finished their comment with the example of Axel Springer losing to AdBlock plus...
    - ChuckNorris89 4y ago
      >the example of Axel Springer losing to AdBlock plus... Because AdBlock is a company who luckily had the means to defend themselves in court. Small time individuals don't have that luxury, so the likes of Axel-Springer will use their massive war-chest for lobbying and to abuse the copyright system again and again until they get their way. Even if they're in the wrong and they end up loosing a court battle, it's still a very powerful intimidation tactic. Look up newer articles. Axel-Springer was still pushing for the AdBlock ban in 2022 and lobbying for it despite loosing a court battle. They're playing the long game.
      - thenaturalist 4y ago
        So from comment to comment, you're changing your focus. That's not really a fair debate. Parent's author, whom I quoted, did not focus on copyright cases as you did and do in this comment. Hence I called him out on his generalization. Now you are going back to "small time individuals" in the context of copyright and how that seems to be an unfair system to you. I won't debate the merits or unfairness of copyright. I just disagree with the general notion that all of continental Europe is a corporation paradise and all citizens are oppressed and all judges rule with corps. It's frankly ridiculous.

Not him, but what I assume he's referring to is the usual cases in Germany where if you torrent a book, a movie, or an mp3 without a VPN, you'll instantly be served a threatening letter from the likes of GEMA, Axel-Springer, or some independent law firm who have your info from your ISP who tracks you, and they'll ask you to pay a fine for your illegal copyright violation or they'll threaten to take you to court on behalf of the film & record companies, where some 80 year old boomer judge who doesn't understand how the internet works, will instantly side with Axel-Springer because they're an old, big, rich, respected German corporation with reputable lawyers who have a history with the judge, and you're not. Reddit is chock full of expats in Germany who got burned by this. And also the locals, but rare because they know how the system works. In Germany it's difficult to defend yourself in court against copyright bullying from big corporations if you don't have deep pockets for a top lawyer, as there's no jury trials, nor double jeopardy, like in the US, so you're at the mercy of a major corporation with unlimited money and an old judge who has read about the internet in the newspaper, so people will instantly fold and stop what they're doing and pay whatever bullshit fine they're issued even when they do nothing illegal because paying the fine is cheaper than battling in court. Honestly, Americans take for granted some of the freedoms they have online and in their justice system. Look up the case of Axel-Springer suing the company that created AdBlock. Luckily Axel lost the first round[1], but it's scary how bold these companies are in Germany as many private individuals don't have the means to defend themselves in curt against such an entity. [1] https://digiday.com/media/axel-springer-reinvigorates-legal-fight-ad-blocking/ https://digiday.com/media/axel-springer-reinvigorates-legal-...

miroljub 4y ago
This is the wrong example. The fact is that there is a whole industry in Germany that whose only purpose is to find out something illegal you did and then sue you doesn't change the fact that piracy is still illegal in Germany. According to German, and many other law systems, piracy is stealing, it's just that in Germany they are enforcing it strictly thanks to those private firms. There's no such thing as "downloading an mp3 or a book" by an accident. You know that you are downloading something illegally. And that 80-year-old judge understands something you don't, that the internet is a neutral medium which doesn't make local laws void just because "you downloaded it from the internet".
- expertentipp 4y ago
  > There's no such thing as "downloading an mp3 or a book" by an accident Dude, you can install software fully hijacking your device by clicking or tapping a link. You have mobile and computer operating systems by default displaying "news" with links to ads and scams.
  - 9dev 4y ago
    "It really isn't my fault Mr. judge, this evil virus downloaded the second volume of 50 Shades of Grey totally against my will!" Are you actually being serious?
    - expertentipp 4y ago
      Yes you get it! The humiliation factor. If it's related to sexuality, the victim can be pushed and squashed even further. One doesn't even have to download the movie, it's enough to share 32kb of it!
9dev 4y ago
As a sibling comment said, you're completely ignoring that torrenting a movie, a book, or any other copyright-protected media is plain and simply illegal. You may not like having to pay for stuff, but that's how the economy works. If you break those laws, it's not really the judges fault, but yours? In Germany you can at least expect a fair trial that isn't overturned by the lawyer that is better at manipulating the jury's emotions...
- ChuckNorris89 4y ago
  > In Germany you can at least expect a fair trial that isn't overturned by the lawyer that is better at manipulating the jury's emotions. Man, I'd love to see the first jury that sides with the evil megacorp and not the 19 year old who downloaded an mp3, like every member of the jury who had a childhood. I'd pay to see that.
CodexArcana 4y ago
Sounds like my experience in the US. I haven't had the desire to pirate anything since the rise of streaming, but there was a time where getting "caught" was never a concern. Then around 2010 I think, you would get a threatening letter from your ISP saying they would ban you from their service, which included the content you downloaded. Considering the monopoly these ISPs have on their service areas that effectively meant a total ban from internet access.
admissionsguy 4y ago
> Honestly, Americans take for granted some of the freedoms they have in their justice system. Torrenting is a weird example to argue, but I definitely agree with the quoted sentiment. Americans tend to (perhaps justly) complain about the costs of standing up to big corporations (or the government) in courts, but in continental Europe there is absolutely no option to have a case against a corporation judged solely on its merits as the judge will be immensely biased to favour the larger, more "respected" entity.
- thenaturalist 4y ago
  > but in continental Europe there is absolutely no option to have a case against a corporation judged solely on its merits as the judge will be immensely biased to favour the larger, more "respected" entity. Your sweeping generalization is especially ironic here, as the parent finished their comment with the example of Axel Springer losing to AdBlock plus...
  - ChuckNorris89 4y ago
    >the example of Axel Springer losing to AdBlock plus... Because AdBlock is a company who luckily had the means to defend themselves in court. Small time individuals don't have that luxury, so the likes of Axel-Springer will use their massive war-chest for lobbying and to abuse the copyright system again and again until they get their way. Even if they're in the wrong and they end up loosing a court battle, it's still a very powerful intimidation tactic. Look up newer articles. Axel-Springer was still pushing for the AdBlock ban in 2022 and lobbying for it despite loosing a court battle. They're playing the long game.
    - thenaturalist 4y ago
      So from comment to comment, you're changing your focus. That's not really a fair debate. Parent's author, whom I quoted, did not focus on copyright cases as you did and do in this comment. Hence I called him out on his generalization. Now you are going back to "small time individuals" in the context of copyright and how that seems to be an unfair system to you. I won't debate the merits or unfairness of copyright. I just disagree with the general notion that all of continental Europe is a corporation paradise and all citizens are oppressed and all judges rule with corps. It's frankly ridiculous.