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I see a lot of posters confidently saying that the solution is obvious and it's [insert their favourite social panacea here]. The level of confidence does not s

by dash2 4y ago

I see a lot of posters confidently saying that the solution is obvious and it's [insert their favourite social panacea here]. The level of confidence does not seem related to the amount of evidence presented. Examples include: more equality; more opportunity; less democracy; reducing gun accidents; less stress; and less teenage parenthood. Many of these problems have been around for a long time. For example, the US has long been unequal and long been a democracy. Teenage parenthood has actually been falling. The fentanyl epidemic is relatively recent. You cannot explain a change by a constant. I would support more intellectual humility and attention to the evidence in thinking about this terrible problem.

chasd00 4y ago
A simpler explanation is there's just a LOT more fentanyl on the streets now then there use to be. And then, it's very potent and easy for users to overdose. It's easy to make the jump from those two factors to a rapid increase in fentanyl addiction and deaths. If you remove one of those two factors then you reduce the increase in addiction and death. So either reduce the amount of fentanyl on the streets or reduce the risk of overdose. I think Narcan being made OTC recently is an attempt at reducing the risk of overdose ending in death at least.
- zirgs 4y ago
  Narcan only works if there's someone else who can administer it. And that someone else should be sober enough to do it.
  - antihero 4y ago
    I’m in the U.K. and how do you even get this? I’d happily keep it on me but there’s not much info Edit: oh it’s illegal unless you’re in a very specific position that will likely not save anyone unless it’s very lucky thanks U.K. government. Dickheads.
    - mrguyorama 4y ago
      There are lots of people who believe someone ODing on fentanyl deserves to die.
      - notch898a 4y ago
        Yes that policy seems dumb. I'm all for everybody being able to buy it. I'm not at all for having to use public funds to pay for it. Let all the saints buy it over the counter with their own money to be the hero, and spare me the tax money.
      - antihero 4y ago
        A lot of people go the brink and come back and live happy lives.
  - stronglikedan 4y ago
    It used to only work when there was someone to call a medic, and hope they arrived in time. Now, if there's someone to call a medic, then that person can just immediately administer the Narcan. Thus, the point about reducing deaths still stands.
- pjc50 4y ago
  An article that just went by on Twitter: https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/california-police-union-executive-charged-opioid-import-case-rcna77349 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/california-police-union... Unaccountable policing strikes again, this time by running organized crime importing fentanyl.
- jollyllama 4y ago
  > I think Narcan being made OTC recently is an attempt at reducing the risk of overdose ending in death at least My theory is that this is why there is so much more fentanyl. If you think of a street level hard drug dealer, other than law enforcement, his biggest problem is the churn of his customer base due to overdoses/prison/going clean. The logical consequence of preventing overdoses is that his customer base will have less churn, expand more over time, and be more profitable. The effect of that is that organized crime becomes a bigger business, with all that entails.
  - ethanbond 4y ago
    I’ve never heard that customers churning out is a problem for dealers. My understanding is that someone ODing is actually good marketing for their product quality and will bring in more customers.
    - skyyler 4y ago
      That's old fashioned, from a time when it meant that the heroin wasn't cut with a bunch of inactive stuff. Nowadays someone ODing means your stuff is cut with fent, which isn't good marketing.
      - Red_Leaves_Flyy 4y ago
        When every dealers known for ODs it stops becoming a concern.
    - jollyllama 4y ago
      Customer retention rate must necessarily be an implicit property of any business, even drug dealing.
      - ethanbond 4y ago
        Different businesses are more or less sensitive to different variables
  - 4y ago
- HNDen21 4y ago
  A lot of these overdoses are because they think they are taking genuine Xanax or Percocet Many of the Hays County kids who overdosed thought they were taking Xanax or Percocet; instead, the pills turned out to be counterfeits laced with fentanyl. Fentanyl is easier and cheaper to manufacture than natural opioids. It’s also much stronger, and can be unevenly distributed in counterfeit pills, making dosing more difficult
- stronglikedan 4y ago
  > I think Narcan being made OTC recently is an attempt at reducing the risk of overdose ending in death at least. Unfortunately, we're starting to face a new monster named Carfentanil, and that monster is Narcan resistant. That said, the move to make it OTC will definitely reduce the deaths. At risk people, can now keep it readily available. In the cases where there is someone able to call a medic for their friend, and wait for a possibly too late Narcan application, that person will simply be able to administer it immediately.
  - hilbert42 4y ago
    According to Wiki, carfentanil is ≈10,000 times more powerful than morphine. We're now talking 10s of micrograms for LD50 in humans. Whilst not as a potent a killer as botulinum toxin (a few nanograms), we're dealing with a substance that's essentially unmanageable. As Wiki mentions, carfentanil is powerful enough to be classed as a chemical weapon. It's time this message was widely broadcast.
  - ravel-bar-foo 4y ago
    Why is there demand for something that is more likely to kill the user? Is it cheaper to produce? Harder to test for? Does it give a stronger high?
    - hilbert42 4y ago
      Indications are that it's easier to synthesize than morphine. If so, one doesn't run the trafficking risk with local production. Seems also it's cheaper (pushers make more profit). (If addicts know they're taking carfentanil and risks associated with it then it's indicative of how powerful a hold the drug has over them.)
- comfypotato 4y ago
  Unfortunately nobody’s confused about the explanation. It’s finding a solution that’s the problem.
adamsmith143 4y ago
People are arguing that more equality, reducing gun accidents and less teenage parenthood will reduce the number of Fentanyl Overdoses? Might as well ban the sale of Purple Shoes as well, who knows how many lives that could save...

by dash2 4y ago

chasd00 4y ago

A simpler explanation is there's just a LOT more fentanyl on the streets now then there use to be. And then, it's very potent and easy for users to overdose. It's easy to make the jump from those two factors to a rapid increase in fentanyl addiction and deaths. If you remove one of those two factors then you reduce the increase in addiction and death. So either reduce the amount of fentanyl on the streets or reduce the risk of overdose. I think Narcan being made OTC recently is an attempt at reducing the risk of overdose ending in death at least.

zirgs 4y ago
Narcan only works if there's someone else who can administer it. And that someone else should be sober enough to do it.
- antihero 4y ago
  I’m in the U.K. and how do you even get this? I’d happily keep it on me but there’s not much info Edit: oh it’s illegal unless you’re in a very specific position that will likely not save anyone unless it’s very lucky thanks U.K. government. Dickheads.
  - mrguyorama 4y ago
    There are lots of people who believe someone ODing on fentanyl deserves to die.
    - notch898a 4y ago
      Yes that policy seems dumb. I'm all for everybody being able to buy it. I'm not at all for having to use public funds to pay for it. Let all the saints buy it over the counter with their own money to be the hero, and spare me the tax money.
    - antihero 4y ago
      A lot of people go the brink and come back and live happy lives.
- stronglikedan 4y ago
  It used to only work when there was someone to call a medic, and hope they arrived in time. Now, if there's someone to call a medic, then that person can just immediately administer the Narcan. Thus, the point about reducing deaths still stands.
pjc50 4y ago
An article that just went by on Twitter: https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/california-police-union-executive-charged-opioid-import-case-rcna77349 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/california-police-union... Unaccountable policing strikes again, this time by running organized crime importing fentanyl.
jollyllama 4y ago
> I think Narcan being made OTC recently is an attempt at reducing the risk of overdose ending in death at least My theory is that this is why there is so much more fentanyl. If you think of a street level hard drug dealer, other than law enforcement, his biggest problem is the churn of his customer base due to overdoses/prison/going clean. The logical consequence of preventing overdoses is that his customer base will have less churn, expand more over time, and be more profitable. The effect of that is that organized crime becomes a bigger business, with all that entails.
- ethanbond 4y ago
  I’ve never heard that customers churning out is a problem for dealers. My understanding is that someone ODing is actually good marketing for their product quality and will bring in more customers.
  - skyyler 4y ago
    That's old fashioned, from a time when it meant that the heroin wasn't cut with a bunch of inactive stuff. Nowadays someone ODing means your stuff is cut with fent, which isn't good marketing.
    - Red_Leaves_Flyy 4y ago
      When every dealers known for ODs it stops becoming a concern.
  - jollyllama 4y ago
    Customer retention rate must necessarily be an implicit property of any business, even drug dealing.
    - ethanbond 4y ago
      Different businesses are more or less sensitive to different variables
- 4y ago
HNDen21 4y ago
A lot of these overdoses are because they think they are taking genuine Xanax or Percocet Many of the Hays County kids who overdosed thought they were taking Xanax or Percocet; instead, the pills turned out to be counterfeits laced with fentanyl. Fentanyl is easier and cheaper to manufacture than natural opioids. It’s also much stronger, and can be unevenly distributed in counterfeit pills, making dosing more difficult
stronglikedan 4y ago
> I think Narcan being made OTC recently is an attempt at reducing the risk of overdose ending in death at least. Unfortunately, we're starting to face a new monster named Carfentanil, and that monster is Narcan resistant. That said, the move to make it OTC will definitely reduce the deaths. At risk people, can now keep it readily available. In the cases where there is someone able to call a medic for their friend, and wait for a possibly too late Narcan application, that person will simply be able to administer it immediately.
- hilbert42 4y ago
  According to Wiki, carfentanil is ≈10,000 times more powerful than morphine. We're now talking 10s of micrograms for LD50 in humans. Whilst not as a potent a killer as botulinum toxin (a few nanograms), we're dealing with a substance that's essentially unmanageable. As Wiki mentions, carfentanil is powerful enough to be classed as a chemical weapon. It's time this message was widely broadcast.
- ravel-bar-foo 4y ago
  Why is there demand for something that is more likely to kill the user? Is it cheaper to produce? Harder to test for? Does it give a stronger high?
  - hilbert42 4y ago
    Indications are that it's easier to synthesize than morphine. If so, one doesn't run the trafficking risk with local production. Seems also it's cheaper (pushers make more profit). (If addicts know they're taking carfentanil and risks associated with it then it's indicative of how powerful a hold the drug has over them.)
comfypotato 4y ago
Unfortunately nobody’s confused about the explanation. It’s finding a solution that’s the problem.

adamsmith143 4y ago

People are arguing that more equality, reducing gun accidents and less teenage parenthood will reduce the number of Fentanyl Overdoses? Might as well ban the sale of Purple Shoes as well, who knows how many lives that could save...