6 ms·

This seems like a bad take. I have yet to see any assertions in the coffee world that approach the sheer amount of overt dishonesty and grift that characterize

This seems like a bad take. I have yet to see any assertions in the coffee world that approach the sheer amount of overt dishonesty and grift that characterizes high-end audio.

LesZedCB 4y ago
have you seen the $200 espresso baskets? I don't know if it's a grift but it is absurd
- mattgreenrocks 4y ago
  That is most likely grift. There's no reason the basket should cost that much to make.
  - ubermonkey 4y ago
    The difference in coffee is that the fancier geegaws are presented for aesthetic reasons, not improvements to the coffee. No one is arguing -- or at least I haven't seen it argued -- that a $200 basket, or a $100 distribution tool, or a super-expensive knock box make better coffee that the basic models. There's just a certain subset of home espresso people who want fancier things, or prettier things, for reasons external to efficacy. How does it look on the counter when I'm not using it? How pleasant is it to hold? Does it tickle that "finely machined object" thing in my brain? For example, lots of people use the Weiss Distribution Technique on their espresso grounds. Simply put, you stir the coffee in the portafilter using a tool with several fine needles on it to reduce clumping and more evenly distribute the grounds. This has been experimentally proven to produce improvements in the shot. BUT, critically, it doesn't matter how expensive the tool is. The DIY crowd buys acupuncture needles on Amazon and sticks 'em into a wine cork, which costs almost nothing. That works every bit as well as a $150 fancy one with a hand-tooled wooden handle and matching base, and no one argues differently. It's just that some people value aesthetics enough to pony up for the fancy option.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - klausa 4y ago
      I mean, there are definitely people who run tests and check whether the $200 baskets result in better coffee — Lance Hendrick [1] is my favorite YouTuber for that kind of thing. The question isn't whether it makes a marginally better espresso (it probably does); the question is whether it's the best bang for your buck. For most people, it probably isn't. For people who have Weber EG-1s on their coutertops (AFAICT, it was Weber with their Unifilter who started this wave of super-expensive baskets/portafilters?) and La Marzoccos / Decents? It might be! [1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JzmGNwyN0MI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JzmGNwyN0MI
      - ubermonkey 4y ago
        I've never heard of that YouTube channel, but I loved his work in ALIENS. (I prefer Hoffmann, and he definitely does the same thing -- ie, point out that some given object might be pretty, and it might do a fine job, but not enough of a BETTER job to justify its premium.)
        LesZedCB 4y ago
        Lance also accepts more freebies whereas Hoffmann pays for everything. it's because of this impeccable ethic which drove me to be a patron of his for a few years - though i think it's time to move to a smaller channel.
- sfmike 4y ago
  are they pure copper and forged like katanas an order of magnitude ammount of times
agloe_dreams 4y ago
> I have yet to see any assertions in the coffee world that approach the sheer amount of overt dishonesty and grift that characterizes high-end audio. Oh this is easy. - Starbucks, as an org, in whole. Brutal dishonesty in much of their marketing, naming, and Brewing methods. Their Coffee flavor is intended to distort your expectations of 'quality coffee'. - The "Roast Date" disappearance on high-end coffee to sell "Quality" rather than freshness. - Keurig's marketing of quality or that they can make 'Espresso' (it can't), their product is designed for lock-in. - Nespresso Vertuo's fake "Froth"
- ubermonkey 4y ago
  Literally none of those things are part of the fancy coffee world I'm talking about. That's all bog standard mass-market salesdroid lying. Citing them in a discussion of home espresso is like dragging McDonald's and 7-11 into a conversation about fine dining.
  - agloe_dreams 4y ago
    Well, yeah but then McDonalds and 7-11 are not pretending to be fine dining while these absolutely are.
    - ubermonkey 4y ago
      No one who cares about coffee enough to have a home espresso machine is fooled. Nobody who cares enough about coffee to grind their own beans is fooled. Again, not in the same realm.
      - agloe_dreams 4y ago
        Oh I'm on the same page, Gaggia Classic, breville smart grinder pro, and all. The VAST majority of Americans are "Fooled" and would say "Starbucks" or "Nespresso" is "Luxury Coffee". I would argue that the coffee industry is where the Audiophile headphone industry was at around the mid 2000s (Monster Headphones, Beats, ETC) where the public was so fooled and only those who knew what good sound was like, knew it was way off.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

This seems like a bad take. I have yet to see any assertions in the coffee world that approach the sheer amount of overt dishonesty and grift that characterizes high-end audio.

LesZedCB 4y ago

have you seen the $200 espresso baskets? I don't know if it's a grift but it is absurd

mattgreenrocks 4y ago
That is most likely grift. There's no reason the basket should cost that much to make.
- ubermonkey 4y ago
  The difference in coffee is that the fancier geegaws are presented for aesthetic reasons, not improvements to the coffee. No one is arguing -- or at least I haven't seen it argued -- that a $200 basket, or a $100 distribution tool, or a super-expensive knock box make better coffee that the basic models. There's just a certain subset of home espresso people who want fancier things, or prettier things, for reasons external to efficacy. How does it look on the counter when I'm not using it? How pleasant is it to hold? Does it tickle that "finely machined object" thing in my brain? For example, lots of people use the Weiss Distribution Technique on their espresso grounds. Simply put, you stir the coffee in the portafilter using a tool with several fine needles on it to reduce clumping and more evenly distribute the grounds. This has been experimentally proven to produce improvements in the shot. BUT, critically, it doesn't matter how expensive the tool is. The DIY crowd buys acupuncture needles on Amazon and sticks 'em into a wine cork, which costs almost nothing. That works every bit as well as a $150 fancy one with a hand-tooled wooden handle and matching base, and no one argues differently. It's just that some people value aesthetics enough to pony up for the fancy option.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - klausa 4y ago
    I mean, there are definitely people who run tests and check whether the $200 baskets result in better coffee — Lance Hendrick [1] is my favorite YouTuber for that kind of thing. The question isn't whether it makes a marginally better espresso (it probably does); the question is whether it's the best bang for your buck. For most people, it probably isn't. For people who have Weber EG-1s on their coutertops (AFAICT, it was Weber with their Unifilter who started this wave of super-expensive baskets/portafilters?) and La Marzoccos / Decents? It might be! [1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JzmGNwyN0MI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JzmGNwyN0MI
    - ubermonkey 4y ago
      I've never heard of that YouTube channel, but I loved his work in ALIENS. (I prefer Hoffmann, and he definitely does the same thing -- ie, point out that some given object might be pretty, and it might do a fine job, but not enough of a BETTER job to justify its premium.)
      - LesZedCB 4y ago
        Lance also accepts more freebies whereas Hoffmann pays for everything. it's because of this impeccable ethic which drove me to be a patron of his for a few years - though i think it's time to move to a smaller channel.
sfmike 4y ago
are they pure copper and forged like katanas an order of magnitude ammount of times

agloe_dreams 4y ago

> I have yet to see any assertions in the coffee world that approach the sheer amount of overt dishonesty and grift that characterizes high-end audio. Oh this is easy. - Starbucks, as an org, in whole. Brutal dishonesty in much of their marketing, naming, and Brewing methods. Their Coffee flavor is intended to distort your expectations of 'quality coffee'. - The "Roast Date" disappearance on high-end coffee to sell "Quality" rather than freshness. - Keurig's marketing of quality or that they can make 'Espresso' (it can't), their product is designed for lock-in. - Nespresso Vertuo's fake "Froth"

ubermonkey 4y ago
Literally none of those things are part of the fancy coffee world I'm talking about. That's all bog standard mass-market salesdroid lying. Citing them in a discussion of home espresso is like dragging McDonald's and 7-11 into a conversation about fine dining.
- agloe_dreams 4y ago
  Well, yeah but then McDonalds and 7-11 are not pretending to be fine dining while these absolutely are.
  - ubermonkey 4y ago
    No one who cares about coffee enough to have a home espresso machine is fooled. Nobody who cares enough about coffee to grind their own beans is fooled. Again, not in the same realm.
    - agloe_dreams 4y ago
      Oh I'm on the same page, Gaggia Classic, breville smart grinder pro, and all. The VAST majority of Americans are "Fooled" and would say "Starbucks" or "Nespresso" is "Luxury Coffee". I would argue that the coffee industry is where the Audiophile headphone industry was at around the mid 2000s (Monster Headphones, Beats, ETC) where the public was so fooled and only those who knew what good sound was like, knew it was way off.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]