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It bothers me to no end, the goodwill Germany gets online. A bastion of freedom, leader of the free world and all sorts of similar appellatives. But living th

It bothers me to no end, the goodwill Germany gets online. A bastion of freedom, leader of the free world and all sorts of similar appellatives. But living there you start to realize how creepy everything is.

orangepurple 4y ago
The Stasi did not vaporize in 1990
- ben_w 4y ago
  Kinda, but I would say that the Stasi were so reviled by the German population that the reaction by the latter against the former is why Germany tends away from the surveillance common in e.g. the UK.
  - hnbad 4y ago
    I think it's fairer to say that the German population is opposed to the idea of surveillance, especially when it happens in public. It's also worth pointing out that "opposition" in this case is extremely tame. The most intense and prolonged protests (not counting the recurring riots surrounding events like G20 or the yearly Mayday protests) Germany has seen in recent history were over COVID measures and even those were pretty mild and didn't do anything. Germans like to complain, but protests usually just fizzle out or lead to delays at best. I think even interest in privacy is waning. Ever since companies have been dragging their heels and making users run through (often outright illegal) cookie consent popups I've been hearing people complain more about privacy protections than about privacy abuses. The attempts to portray these laws as "red tape" have been very effective.
- hef19898 4y ago
  And your source for that is?
  - orangepurple 4y ago
    Its members and their knowledge lived on for another day, another chance.
    - hef19898 4y ago
      None of the fromer Stasi agents got any job in Government, by virtue of being communists. Feel free to provide proof to the contrary. Most did go to private industry so. Edit: In fact, post WW2 German intelligence started as "Organisation Gehlen", as in Gehlen, former head of Fremde Heere Ost of the Wehrmacht (none of the anti-Nazi Abwehr people). Quite an ibteresting choice, picking a Nazi intel officer that was wrong basically all the time to head the new German intelligence service. To be fair so, the Russians staffed the East German coubterparts with former Gestapo and Abwehr people as well.
taneq 4y ago
In all fairness, knowledge is power, and most people in government are in government because they want power. Invasion of privacy is the goal of most governments.
thenaturalist 4y ago
Care to share examples? Not saying you're wrong, genuinely curious about specifics.
- aa-jv 4y ago
  You can start by pulling the thread on who runs Germanys' intelligence services ..
  - thenaturalist 4y ago
    Who does? Sorry, but I can't really learn anything from such a vague reply.
    - aa-jv 4y ago
      The US' intelligence agencies do.
      - eastendguy 4y ago
        And your source for this statement is which Telegram group?
        hef19898 4y ago
        It seems the source sits on the management board of the BRD GmbH...
      - thenaturalist 4y ago
        So looking at the history of (West) Germany post WW2 with the country entering NATO, significant US military presence and essentially being the border country to the Soviet block, I think it's reasonable that there is a veritable historical root for a significant US intelligence agency influence on the structure of Germany's intelligence service as well as lenient laws towards US intelligence services operating within Germany. Not really surprising given the Cold War history in my book. I also think it's credible that some of these close ties were kept way past "expiration", who likes to give up privileges, esp. as an intelligence service. As a matter of fact though, looking at the long list of intelligence service scandals, there has been more and more light shed on these tricks by parliament and a free press since the 2010s [0]. Also, there was a law past in 2016 after the NSA revelations increasing control and limiting capabilities of the BND [1]. So while going back 30+ years I am inclined to go with your statement, I can't find objective evidence, hints, whatsoever, that this is still true. With all that being said, as a German citizen, I'd much rather be allied with US intelligence services than Chinese or Russian ones. Yes, it's a dragnet, yes it's a hassle to protect your privacy effectively, yes intelligence services are no lambs and always play by the books. But let's not kid ourselves, both Germany and the US are pretty free countries for their citizens? [0]: For example for a critical opinion of the NSA <> BND relationship, which is also being itself critized by other experts https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Globale_%C3%9Cberwachungs-_und_Spionageaff%C3%A4re#Einsch%C3%A4tzungen_des_Historikers_Josef_Foschepoth https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Globale_%C3%9Cberwachungs-_und... [1]: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gesetz_zur_Ausland-Ausland-Fernmeldeaufkl%C3%A4rung_des_Bundesnachrichtendienstes https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gesetz_zur_Ausland-Ausland-Fer...
izacus 4y ago
You could enlighten us with some explanation and sources. We're mostly not Germans after all.
- inductive_magic 4y ago
  [not the gp] For one, Germany is not a state of law, given that the public prosecutor's office is bound by instructions (not sure if that's the correct translation). It is up to politicians to decide wether state attorneys can go through with lawsuits. I didn't know this until I was close to 30. This came to somewhat public attention because our current chancellor was the superior to the prosecutor while being in the senate of Hamburg, which is why he wasn't prosecuted in the causa cum ex. It's the whole "one big club" thing, but legal. If you haven't heard of "cum ex", its a fun read of how bad things can go (well, could, so far). Most recently, the data privacy officer of Hamburg said this: Principles for avoiding and minimizing the processing of personal information, which are enshrined in the General Data Protection Regulation (GDPR), among other things, "will be unable to be upheld." Read his job title again :-) Another prime example is how anything related to the future is compromised in favor of legacy industrial groups. We used to be leading in solar tech, but political support for the related industries was gutted in favor of drum roll coal jobs. I could go on for a long time.
  - bigger_inside 4y ago
    I don't know why this is getting downvoted, all of this is true. Prosecution in Germany is 100% a political decision. Policing (below this level) is supposed to be "automatic by law", but in practice, that of course also is not the case. All state bureaucracy is of political, always, but in the case of German prosecution, it's openly legal.
- sneak 4y ago
  For one, you can't get a phone number in Germany without showing strong government ID. Phone number requirements in apps mean that you basically can't use consumer apps without doxing yourself.
  - 4y ago
melvinmelih 4y ago
The Netherlands is also infamous for its tough privacy laws but at the same time has the most phone taps per capita in the world. Your every move in traffic (both by car and public transit) is tracked and tied to your id. The police can see the balance of your bank account. UK is the same with CCTVs on every street. There are practically no privacy laws for the government, they know everything. I guess it’s an European thing…
- mschuster91 4y ago
  The Netherlands are quickly becoming the Mexico of Europe, a virtual narco state. The amount of organized crime related to or financed by drug empires there is insane.
  - Tade0 4y ago
    Can you elaborate? I feel like any information about this country is carefully curated and you don't normally hear anything of this sort.
    - hef19898 4y ago
      Well, it is nowhere near as bad as Mexico, but the Netherlands see their fair share of trafficking, money launderng and assorted organized crime. By virtue of having Europes biggest container port and liberal drug laws.
    - mcv 4y ago
      Netherland has had pretty permissive drug policies for quite some time now, and this seems to have lead to it becoming increasingly important in international drug trade. A couple of years ago there were some serious concerns about this getting out of hand. I have no idea what the current situation really is. It's not happening with the kind of violence that you sometimes hear about from Mexico, though.
      - Gasp0de 4y ago
        Can you explain how the dutch permissive drug policies (which are exclusively related to recreational use) have any influence on importance in international drug trade? Smuggling hard drugs carries a sentence of up to 16 years in prison in the Netherlands and is also frequently enforced.
PurpleRamen 4y ago
Any country is creepy, especially if you don't understand the reasoning for certain aspects of it.
- coldtea 4y ago
  And even more creepy when you do.
  - PurpleRamen 4y ago
    Depends. Most creepiness comes from the unknown, the things that might happen. But if you understand the country, know how things work and which real impact they have, the creepiness can disappear.

orangepurple 4y ago

The Stasi did not vaporize in 1990

ben_w 4y ago
Kinda, but I would say that the Stasi were so reviled by the German population that the reaction by the latter against the former is why Germany tends away from the surveillance common in e.g. the UK.
- hnbad 4y ago
  I think it's fairer to say that the German population is opposed to the idea of surveillance, especially when it happens in public. It's also worth pointing out that "opposition" in this case is extremely tame. The most intense and prolonged protests (not counting the recurring riots surrounding events like G20 or the yearly Mayday protests) Germany has seen in recent history were over COVID measures and even those were pretty mild and didn't do anything. Germans like to complain, but protests usually just fizzle out or lead to delays at best. I think even interest in privacy is waning. Ever since companies have been dragging their heels and making users run through (often outright illegal) cookie consent popups I've been hearing people complain more about privacy protections than about privacy abuses. The attempts to portray these laws as "red tape" have been very effective.
hef19898 4y ago
And your source for that is?
- orangepurple 4y ago
  Its members and their knowledge lived on for another day, another chance.
  - hef19898 4y ago
    None of the fromer Stasi agents got any job in Government, by virtue of being communists. Feel free to provide proof to the contrary. Most did go to private industry so. Edit: In fact, post WW2 German intelligence started as "Organisation Gehlen", as in Gehlen, former head of Fremde Heere Ost of the Wehrmacht (none of the anti-Nazi Abwehr people). Quite an ibteresting choice, picking a Nazi intel officer that was wrong basically all the time to head the new German intelligence service. To be fair so, the Russians staffed the East German coubterparts with former Gestapo and Abwehr people as well.

taneq 4y ago

In all fairness, knowledge is power, and most people in government are in government because they want power. Invasion of privacy is the goal of most governments.

thenaturalist 4y ago

Care to share examples? Not saying you're wrong, genuinely curious about specifics.

aa-jv 4y ago
You can start by pulling the thread on who runs Germanys' intelligence services ..
- thenaturalist 4y ago
  Who does? Sorry, but I can't really learn anything from such a vague reply.
  - aa-jv 4y ago
    The US' intelligence agencies do.
    - eastendguy 4y ago
      And your source for this statement is which Telegram group?
      - hef19898 4y ago
        It seems the source sits on the management board of the BRD GmbH...
    - thenaturalist 4y ago
      So looking at the history of (West) Germany post WW2 with the country entering NATO, significant US military presence and essentially being the border country to the Soviet block, I think it's reasonable that there is a veritable historical root for a significant US intelligence agency influence on the structure of Germany's intelligence service as well as lenient laws towards US intelligence services operating within Germany. Not really surprising given the Cold War history in my book. I also think it's credible that some of these close ties were kept way past "expiration", who likes to give up privileges, esp. as an intelligence service. As a matter of fact though, looking at the long list of intelligence service scandals, there has been more and more light shed on these tricks by parliament and a free press since the 2010s [0]. Also, there was a law past in 2016 after the NSA revelations increasing control and limiting capabilities of the BND [1]. So while going back 30+ years I am inclined to go with your statement, I can't find objective evidence, hints, whatsoever, that this is still true. With all that being said, as a German citizen, I'd much rather be allied with US intelligence services than Chinese or Russian ones. Yes, it's a dragnet, yes it's a hassle to protect your privacy effectively, yes intelligence services are no lambs and always play by the books. But let's not kid ourselves, both Germany and the US are pretty free countries for their citizens? [0]: For example for a critical opinion of the NSA <> BND relationship, which is also being itself critized by other experts https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Globale_%C3%9Cberwachungs-_und_Spionageaff%C3%A4re#Einsch%C3%A4tzungen_des_Historikers_Josef_Foschepoth https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Globale_%C3%9Cberwachungs-_und... [1]: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gesetz_zur_Ausland-Ausland-Fernmeldeaufkl%C3%A4rung_des_Bundesnachrichtendienstes https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gesetz_zur_Ausland-Ausland-Fer...

izacus 4y ago

You could enlighten us with some explanation and sources. We're mostly not Germans after all.

inductive_magic 4y ago
[not the gp] For one, Germany is not a state of law, given that the public prosecutor's office is bound by instructions (not sure if that's the correct translation). It is up to politicians to decide wether state attorneys can go through with lawsuits. I didn't know this until I was close to 30. This came to somewhat public attention because our current chancellor was the superior to the prosecutor while being in the senate of Hamburg, which is why he wasn't prosecuted in the causa cum ex. It's the whole "one big club" thing, but legal. If you haven't heard of "cum ex", its a fun read of how bad things can go (well, could, so far). Most recently, the data privacy officer of Hamburg said this: Principles for avoiding and minimizing the processing of personal information, which are enshrined in the General Data Protection Regulation (GDPR), among other things, "will be unable to be upheld." Read his job title again :-) Another prime example is how anything related to the future is compromised in favor of legacy industrial groups. We used to be leading in solar tech, but political support for the related industries was gutted in favor of drum roll coal jobs. I could go on for a long time.
- bigger_inside 4y ago
  I don't know why this is getting downvoted, all of this is true. Prosecution in Germany is 100% a political decision. Policing (below this level) is supposed to be "automatic by law", but in practice, that of course also is not the case. All state bureaucracy is of political, always, but in the case of German prosecution, it's openly legal.
sneak 4y ago
For one, you can't get a phone number in Germany without showing strong government ID. Phone number requirements in apps mean that you basically can't use consumer apps without doxing yourself.
- 4y ago

melvinmelih 4y ago

The Netherlands is also infamous for its tough privacy laws but at the same time has the most phone taps per capita in the world. Your every move in traffic (both by car and public transit) is tracked and tied to your id. The police can see the balance of your bank account. UK is the same with CCTVs on every street. There are practically no privacy laws for the government, they know everything. I guess it’s an European thing…

mschuster91 4y ago
The Netherlands are quickly becoming the Mexico of Europe, a virtual narco state. The amount of organized crime related to or financed by drug empires there is insane.
- Tade0 4y ago
  Can you elaborate? I feel like any information about this country is carefully curated and you don't normally hear anything of this sort.
  - hef19898 4y ago
    Well, it is nowhere near as bad as Mexico, but the Netherlands see their fair share of trafficking, money launderng and assorted organized crime. By virtue of having Europes biggest container port and liberal drug laws.
  - mcv 4y ago
    Netherland has had pretty permissive drug policies for quite some time now, and this seems to have lead to it becoming increasingly important in international drug trade. A couple of years ago there were some serious concerns about this getting out of hand. I have no idea what the current situation really is. It's not happening with the kind of violence that you sometimes hear about from Mexico, though.
    - Gasp0de 4y ago
      Can you explain how the dutch permissive drug policies (which are exclusively related to recreational use) have any influence on importance in international drug trade? Smuggling hard drugs carries a sentence of up to 16 years in prison in the Netherlands and is also frequently enforced.

PurpleRamen 4y ago

Any country is creepy, especially if you don't understand the reasoning for certain aspects of it.

coldtea 4y ago
And even more creepy when you do.
- PurpleRamen 4y ago
  Depends. Most creepiness comes from the unknown, the things that might happen. But if you understand the country, know how things work and which real impact they have, the creepiness can disappear.