9 ms·

We know exactly what to do, it's just that nobody's willing to pay for it. The poor don't have any money by definition, the middle class, particularly in New Y

We know exactly what to do, it's just that nobody's willing to pay for it. The poor don't have any money by definition, the middle class, particularly in New York, is already at or near its limit, the rich are too busy being the main character to bother, and the political class is entrenched enough that this issue alone won't produce enough political force to dislodge them or move them to significant action. Addicts typically aren't very motivated voters, and most of them probably didn't have a supportive family to begin with. So I guess we're back to the tried-and-true approach of charities putting as many band-aids on the broken leg as they can, politicians spouting empty rhetoric with crocodile tears around election season, and cops policing the affluent neighborhoods while largely leaving the rest to rot. How do we fix all of this, that might have a chance of actually happening? Capital controls. Make TVs, mixers and smart toasters expensive again, but made in America. We need a full economic ladder, not just the top rungs. College degrees should not be required to enter the middle class, in their current state many degrees don't even provide that anymore.

dash2 4y ago
What leads you to be confident that (we already know that) making society more equal will reduce the fentanyl epidemic?
- scottLobster 4y ago
  Because for many (most?) addicts drug use starts as a coping mechanism. So the question is what are people coping with that's so bad it causes them to turn to drugs, despite all the readily available information about how bad they are? Lack of economic opportunity among the lower classes is a big one. There are certainly other causes of addiction, but at the end of the day a lot of rehab programs fail because even if the addict gets clean, they're immediately sent back to the living situation that got them addicted in the first place. This is especially true for the homeless, "congrats you're free of heroin, now go back to your tent under the bridge where you live in constant fear of rape from other drugged-out homeless people and no employer will touch you! You're free!"
  - seandoe 4y ago
    You should read up more on the opioid crisis and fentanyl specifically. Poverty and "lack of economic opportunity" is not a new thing. We're dealing with something entirely different and these armchair expert comments and opinions don't help things.
    - scottLobster 4y ago
      The crack epidemic in the 80s wasn't fentanyl. Whatever its divergent chemical properties, I'd rather address the reason people start using it in the first place. If we don't fix that, then even a magic rehab pill that instantly cures addiction won't have any meaningful impact. As for "poverty and lack of opportunity" not being a new thing, no shit. But we've seen a hollowing out of the middle class over the past few decades. So a lot of newly impoverished people who grew up middle class, or are else seeing their quality of life decline through no fault of their own. That is relatively new on the scale that we're seeing it. And I say this as someone who's immediate family has had some past issues with fentanyl addiction, so it's anecdotal, but I'm hardly just speaking from my armchair here.
zpeti 4y ago
[flagged]
- scottLobster 4y ago
  Capital controls are communist? That's funny, because up until the Post-WWII order that's pretty much what everyone had. It's what some western nations still have to this day. It's what we do for our entire military supply chain. You know, like those radical lefty organizations Lockheed Martin, Boeing and Raytheon. Adam Smith himself is communist by many modern capitalists' definitions, the label is getting tiresome. They (and possibly you) just want money without any responsibility, a child's idea of a good life.
  - pjc50 4y ago
    Indeed. The US had capital controls: https://www.elibrary.imf.org/view/journals/024/1975/001/article-A002-en.xml https://www.elibrary.imf.org/view/journals/024/1975/001/arti... .. introduced by noted communist Lyndon B Johnson.
- influx 4y ago
  I wish people advocating these views would visit Eastern Europe and ask them how well Communism prevented disparities and despair.
  - zpeti 4y ago
    No no. The way I would do communism would be good!
    - slaw 4y ago
      That wasn't real communism.
  - giraffe_lady 4y ago
    I wish people advocating capitalism would visit my hometown in rural southeast US and see it too honestly. 18% of children and 25% of elderly adults under the poverty line. Every single family I know of directly touched by at least one of the wave after wave of addiction crises we've been having. We aren't better you just don't have to look at it.
CPLX 4y ago
While I completely agree with you on the causes of social malaise, and the importance of it, I'm not sure "we know exactly what to do" is really an accurate statement. Opioid addiction has been a spectacularly difficult nut to crack as long as there have been opioids, and highly related issues like alcoholism likewise. There's a lot of inputs to addiction. You rightly point out the input of economic dignity, which probably is top of the list from a policy standpoint. And on a public policy basis there's also culture, media, simple availability of the drug, availability of interventions, and many other inputs. But the largest input to addiction is family structure and dynamics, and it's not even kind of close.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- scottLobster 4y ago
  True enough, where I was coming from with that is we haven't even tried the obvious stuff. Sure they'd only be partial solutions, but right now we're like an obese person who eats 100 oreos a day but wants to lose weight. The first steps at least are blindingly obvious.
- SyzygistSix 4y ago
  Opiate addiction is not nearly as big a problem as overdoses though. It isn't the end of the world if someone becomes addicted to opiates. There are pathways to recovery and one can live a relatively normal life while addicted. What makes it exceptionally harmful is the amount of fentanyl in street drugs, the legal ramifications of use, and the lack of realistic treatment.
  - seandoe 4y ago
    That's an interesting take. Kinda like drunk driving is not nearly as big a problem as drunk crashing.
    - ElevenLathe 4y ago
      As a thought experiment, what would be wrong with drunk driving if it we could always prevent drunk crashing? It feels wrong, but I guess we should in theory be fine with it.

dash2 4y ago

What leads you to be confident that (we already know that) making society more equal will reduce the fentanyl epidemic?

scottLobster 4y ago
Because for many (most?) addicts drug use starts as a coping mechanism. So the question is what are people coping with that's so bad it causes them to turn to drugs, despite all the readily available information about how bad they are? Lack of economic opportunity among the lower classes is a big one. There are certainly other causes of addiction, but at the end of the day a lot of rehab programs fail because even if the addict gets clean, they're immediately sent back to the living situation that got them addicted in the first place. This is especially true for the homeless, "congrats you're free of heroin, now go back to your tent under the bridge where you live in constant fear of rape from other drugged-out homeless people and no employer will touch you! You're free!"
- seandoe 4y ago
  You should read up more on the opioid crisis and fentanyl specifically. Poverty and "lack of economic opportunity" is not a new thing. We're dealing with something entirely different and these armchair expert comments and opinions don't help things.
  - scottLobster 4y ago
    The crack epidemic in the 80s wasn't fentanyl. Whatever its divergent chemical properties, I'd rather address the reason people start using it in the first place. If we don't fix that, then even a magic rehab pill that instantly cures addiction won't have any meaningful impact. As for "poverty and lack of opportunity" not being a new thing, no shit. But we've seen a hollowing out of the middle class over the past few decades. So a lot of newly impoverished people who grew up middle class, or are else seeing their quality of life decline through no fault of their own. That is relatively new on the scale that we're seeing it. And I say this as someone who's immediate family has had some past issues with fentanyl addiction, so it's anecdotal, but I'm hardly just speaking from my armchair here.

zpeti 4y ago

[flagged]

scottLobster 4y ago
Capital controls are communist? That's funny, because up until the Post-WWII order that's pretty much what everyone had. It's what some western nations still have to this day. It's what we do for our entire military supply chain. You know, like those radical lefty organizations Lockheed Martin, Boeing and Raytheon. Adam Smith himself is communist by many modern capitalists' definitions, the label is getting tiresome. They (and possibly you) just want money without any responsibility, a child's idea of a good life.
- pjc50 4y ago
  Indeed. The US had capital controls: https://www.elibrary.imf.org/view/journals/024/1975/001/article-A002-en.xml https://www.elibrary.imf.org/view/journals/024/1975/001/arti... .. introduced by noted communist Lyndon B Johnson.
influx 4y ago
I wish people advocating these views would visit Eastern Europe and ask them how well Communism prevented disparities and despair.
- zpeti 4y ago
  No no. The way I would do communism would be good!
  - slaw 4y ago
    That wasn't real communism.
- giraffe_lady 4y ago
  I wish people advocating capitalism would visit my hometown in rural southeast US and see it too honestly. 18% of children and 25% of elderly adults under the poverty line. Every single family I know of directly touched by at least one of the wave after wave of addiction crises we've been having. We aren't better you just don't have to look at it.

CPLX 4y ago

While I completely agree with you on the causes of social malaise, and the importance of it, I'm not sure "we know exactly what to do" is really an accurate statement. Opioid addiction has been a spectacularly difficult nut to crack as long as there have been opioids, and highly related issues like alcoholism likewise. There's a lot of inputs to addiction. You rightly point out the input of economic dignity, which probably is top of the list from a policy standpoint. And on a public policy basis there's also culture, media, simple availability of the drug, availability of interventions, and many other inputs. But the largest input to addiction is family structure and dynamics, and it's not even kind of close.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
scottLobster 4y ago
True enough, where I was coming from with that is we haven't even tried the obvious stuff. Sure they'd only be partial solutions, but right now we're like an obese person who eats 100 oreos a day but wants to lose weight. The first steps at least are blindingly obvious.
SyzygistSix 4y ago
Opiate addiction is not nearly as big a problem as overdoses though. It isn't the end of the world if someone becomes addicted to opiates. There are pathways to recovery and one can live a relatively normal life while addicted. What makes it exceptionally harmful is the amount of fentanyl in street drugs, the legal ramifications of use, and the lack of realistic treatment.
- seandoe 4y ago
  That's an interesting take. Kinda like drunk driving is not nearly as big a problem as drunk crashing.
  - ElevenLathe 4y ago
    As a thought experiment, what would be wrong with drunk driving if it we could always prevent drunk crashing? It feels wrong, but I guess we should in theory be fine with it.