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After experiencing first-hand German copyright cease and desist bullying and being forced to deal with Schufa, I put zero trust in any of "privacy" initiatives

After experiencing first-hand German copyright cease and desist bullying and being forced to deal with Schufa, I put zero trust in any of "privacy" initiatives coming from them. All their EU-level initiatives are biased by various domestic "privacy" practices ranging from weird to creepy.

snehk 4y ago
> After experiencing first-hand German copyright case and desist bullying So you got caught pirating content? How is that an argument for or against anything or proof of anything?
- rawbot 4y ago
  but what would Schufa have to do with it?
  - expertentipp 4y ago
    [flagged]
    - martijnvds 4y ago
      TV license is basically just another tax, right? And what do you mean by the second part? As far as I understand private data in Germany is _very_ private, or it would be a violation of the "Datenschutz" (data protection) laws.
      - expertentipp 4y ago
        You register at Meldebehörde, the letter from Rundfunkbeitrag arrives. Then another one. Increasingly apeshit letters. To every person in the household.
        9dev 4y ago
        Well... that's kind of the deal with public broadcast fees in Germany. I also think the way it's collected is pretty weird, but that doesn't make the Rundfunkbeitrag a bad thing in general. You seem to be rambling about a lot of different things here, conflating some of them entirely unrelated to privacy laws: If you get caught torrenting a torrent poisoned by a private law firm, that hasn't got anything to do with German legislation. Schufa, on the other hand, claims to operate under existing DSGVO/GDPR law (even though that may be invalidated eventually); and other than the Rundfunkbeitrag, I'm not aware of any data sharing between the Meldebehörde and "public media", whoever that is.
        martijnvds 4y ago
        https://www.rundfunkbeitrag.de/datenschutz/datenschutz_beim_beitragseinzug/index_ger.html#auf_welcher_rechtsgrundlage_zu_welchem_zweck_werden_die_daten_verarbeitet https://www.rundfunkbeitrag.de/datenschutz/datenschutz_beim_... There are laws that govern this. It's not some shady business.
        catslovepie 4y ago
        Calling public media cunts already gives me an idea what kind of person you are. Rundfunkbeitrag has to be paid by every household by law and is meant to ensure independent reporting by the public media, especially independent from political parties or corporations. We can argue how well this works in Germany, but there are quite a lot of examples around the world where it's way worse.
      - PurpleRamen 4y ago
        > TV license is basically just another tax, right? Technically it's not, which is why there is private company collecting it. > As far as I understand private data in Germany is _very_ private, or it would be a violation of the "Datenschutz" (data protection) laws. Yes and no. The company is infamous for doing sketchy things, buying addresses here and there, including getting them from public sources, and this is not even illegal to some degree.
        DocTomoe 4y ago
        > Technically it's not, which is why there is private company collecting it. Technically it is a "öffentlich-rechtliche, nicht rechtsfähige Gemeinschaftseinrichtung", and not a private company.
  - Arnt 4y ago
    Guessing: GP did something, lost a copyright case in court, had to pay, didn't pay, and that's a "did not pay debts" entry in the Schufa database.
    - expertentipp 4y ago
      Double negative. Ticked the "bugger off" answer to the yellow envelope and Schufa simply infinitely pisses me off. With omnipresent requirement for Schufa report and how they upsell their useless predatory subscriptions on attempt to obtain the free report.
- expertentipp 4y ago
  [flagged]
  - snehk 4y ago
    "I got caught doing illegal things" is not really an argument. You can argue that piracy shouldn't be illegal but the fact that you got caught doing it isn't at all an argument against anything.
    - expertentipp 4y ago
      They only go apeshit on the owner of the internet subscription, they don't catch anyone on doing anything.
      - snehk 4y ago
        I still don't understand what you're getting at? If you get into a speed trap they also contact the person who registered the car, not the person driving. I don't see how this is any indication of hypocrisy here.
        expertentipp 4y ago
        Yes I would download a car. I would download it so hard that the connection would turn red and swollen.
shiftright 4y ago
It bothers me to no end, the goodwill Germany gets online. A bastion of freedom, leader of the free world and all sorts of similar appellatives. But living there you start to realize how creepy everything is.
- orangepurple 4y ago
  The Stasi did not vaporize in 1990
  - ben_w 4y ago
    Kinda, but I would say that the Stasi were so reviled by the German population that the reaction by the latter against the former is why Germany tends away from the surveillance common in e.g. the UK.
    - hnbad 4y ago
      I think it's fairer to say that the German population is opposed to the idea of surveillance, especially when it happens in public. It's also worth pointing out that "opposition" in this case is extremely tame. The most intense and prolonged protests (not counting the recurring riots surrounding events like G20 or the yearly Mayday protests) Germany has seen in recent history were over COVID measures and even those were pretty mild and didn't do anything. Germans like to complain, but protests usually just fizzle out or lead to delays at best. I think even interest in privacy is waning. Ever since companies have been dragging their heels and making users run through (often outright illegal) cookie consent popups I've been hearing people complain more about privacy protections than about privacy abuses. The attempts to portray these laws as "red tape" have been very effective.
  - hef19898 4y ago
    And your source for that is?
    - orangepurple 4y ago
      Its members and their knowledge lived on for another day, another chance.
thenaturalist 4y ago
Hi there, could you be more specific, or could you provide any sources related to your claims?
- ChuckNorris89 4y ago
  Not him, but what I assume he's referring to is the usual cases in Germany where if you torrent a book, a movie, or an mp3 without a VPN, you'll instantly be served a threatening letter from the likes of GEMA, Axel-Springer, or some independent law firm who have your info from your ISP who tracks you, and they'll ask you to pay a fine for your illegal copyright violation or they'll threaten to take you to court on behalf of the film & record companies, where some 80 year old boomer judge who doesn't understand how the internet works, will instantly side with Axel-Springer because they're an old, big, rich, respected German corporation with reputable lawyers who have a history with the judge, and you're not. Reddit is chock full of expats in Germany who got burned by this. And also the locals, but rare because they know how the system works. In Germany it's difficult to defend yourself in court against copyright bullying from big corporations if you don't have deep pockets for a top lawyer, as there's no jury trials, nor double jeopardy, like in the US, so you're at the mercy of a major corporation with unlimited money and an old judge who has read about the internet in the newspaper, so people will instantly fold and stop what they're doing and pay whatever bullshit fine they're issued even when they do nothing illegal because paying the fine is cheaper than battling in court. Honestly, Americans take for granted some of the freedoms they have online and in their justice system. Look up the case of Axel-Springer suing the company that created AdBlock. Luckily Axel lost the first round[1], but it's scary how bold these companies are in Germany as many private individuals don't have the means to defend themselves in curt against such an entity. [1] https://digiday.com/media/axel-springer-reinvigorates-legal-fight-ad-blocking/ https://digiday.com/media/axel-springer-reinvigorates-legal-...
  - miroljub 4y ago
    This is the wrong example. The fact is that there is a whole industry in Germany that whose only purpose is to find out something illegal you did and then sue you doesn't change the fact that piracy is still illegal in Germany. According to German, and many other law systems, piracy is stealing, it's just that in Germany they are enforcing it strictly thanks to those private firms. There's no such thing as "downloading an mp3 or a book" by an accident. You know that you are downloading something illegally. And that 80-year-old judge understands something you don't, that the internet is a neutral medium which doesn't make local laws void just because "you downloaded it from the internet".
hnbad 4y ago
For what it's worth, a recent court opinion suggests that the Schufa credit score may be in violation of EU law.
- dgellow 4y ago
  Do you have a source? That would be fantastic
  - Arnt 4y ago
    Not a big change. Schufa uses data from the last [period], court said [shorter period]. I don't recall the details of the two periods.
  - hnbad 4y ago
    It seems to be an expert witness assessment in the active course case, not the opinion of the court itself, apparently, but the reporting here and elsewhere seems optimistic: https://www.t-online.de/finanzen/ratgeber/verbraucher/id_100145870/schufa-score-verstoesst-gegen-eu-recht-das-sind-die-folgen.html https://www.t-online.de/finanzen/ratgeber/verbraucher/id_100... Schufa already had to cut their storage duration for data regarding private bankruptcy so there's definitely blood in the water.
eastendguy 4y ago
What has a "German copyright cease and desist" to do with privacy, or the lack of privacy? And who is "them"? A few sources and details instead of just ranting would be useful.
- expertentipp 4y ago
  [flagged]
- newaccount74 4y ago
  If I recall correctly, some of these "cease and desist" cases involved tricking people into sharing specific copyrighted material, then asking the internet providers to identify users who violated copyright, and sending them cease an desist letters together with an invoice (which seems to be peculiarity of the German legal system). If people had stronger privacy, these sorts of things wouldn't work.
Gasp0de 4y ago
That sounds like complete bullshit. Why would the German government bully you? And if it was some random German lawyers (which it sounds like) what does that have to do with anything related to this article?

snehk 4y ago

> After experiencing first-hand German copyright case and desist bullying So you got caught pirating content? How is that an argument for or against anything or proof of anything?

rawbot 4y ago
but what would Schufa have to do with it?
- expertentipp 4y ago
  [flagged]
  - martijnvds 4y ago
    TV license is basically just another tax, right? And what do you mean by the second part? As far as I understand private data in Germany is _very_ private, or it would be a violation of the "Datenschutz" (data protection) laws.
    - expertentipp 4y ago
      You register at Meldebehörde, the letter from Rundfunkbeitrag arrives. Then another one. Increasingly apeshit letters. To every person in the household.
      - 9dev 4y ago
        Well... that's kind of the deal with public broadcast fees in Germany. I also think the way it's collected is pretty weird, but that doesn't make the Rundfunkbeitrag a bad thing in general. You seem to be rambling about a lot of different things here, conflating some of them entirely unrelated to privacy laws: If you get caught torrenting a torrent poisoned by a private law firm, that hasn't got anything to do with German legislation. Schufa, on the other hand, claims to operate under existing DSGVO/GDPR law (even though that may be invalidated eventually); and other than the Rundfunkbeitrag, I'm not aware of any data sharing between the Meldebehörde and "public media", whoever that is.
      - martijnvds 4y ago
        https://www.rundfunkbeitrag.de/datenschutz/datenschutz_beim_beitragseinzug/index_ger.html#auf_welcher_rechtsgrundlage_zu_welchem_zweck_werden_die_daten_verarbeitet https://www.rundfunkbeitrag.de/datenschutz/datenschutz_beim_... There are laws that govern this. It's not some shady business.
      - catslovepie 4y ago
        Calling public media cunts already gives me an idea what kind of person you are. Rundfunkbeitrag has to be paid by every household by law and is meant to ensure independent reporting by the public media, especially independent from political parties or corporations. We can argue how well this works in Germany, but there are quite a lot of examples around the world where it's way worse.
    - PurpleRamen 4y ago
      > TV license is basically just another tax, right? Technically it's not, which is why there is private company collecting it. > As far as I understand private data in Germany is _very_ private, or it would be a violation of the "Datenschutz" (data protection) laws. Yes and no. The company is infamous for doing sketchy things, buying addresses here and there, including getting them from public sources, and this is not even illegal to some degree.
      - DocTomoe 4y ago
        > Technically it's not, which is why there is private company collecting it. Technically it is a "öffentlich-rechtliche, nicht rechtsfähige Gemeinschaftseinrichtung", and not a private company.
- Arnt 4y ago
  Guessing: GP did something, lost a copyright case in court, had to pay, didn't pay, and that's a "did not pay debts" entry in the Schufa database.
  - expertentipp 4y ago
    Double negative. Ticked the "bugger off" answer to the yellow envelope and Schufa simply infinitely pisses me off. With omnipresent requirement for Schufa report and how they upsell their useless predatory subscriptions on attempt to obtain the free report.
expertentipp 4y ago
[flagged]
- snehk 4y ago
  "I got caught doing illegal things" is not really an argument. You can argue that piracy shouldn't be illegal but the fact that you got caught doing it isn't at all an argument against anything.
  - expertentipp 4y ago
    They only go apeshit on the owner of the internet subscription, they don't catch anyone on doing anything.
    - snehk 4y ago
      I still don't understand what you're getting at? If you get into a speed trap they also contact the person who registered the car, not the person driving. I don't see how this is any indication of hypocrisy here.
      - expertentipp 4y ago
        Yes I would download a car. I would download it so hard that the connection would turn red and swollen.

shiftright 4y ago

It bothers me to no end, the goodwill Germany gets online. A bastion of freedom, leader of the free world and all sorts of similar appellatives. But living there you start to realize how creepy everything is.

orangepurple 4y ago
The Stasi did not vaporize in 1990
- ben_w 4y ago
  Kinda, but I would say that the Stasi were so reviled by the German population that the reaction by the latter against the former is why Germany tends away from the surveillance common in e.g. the UK.
  - hnbad 4y ago
    I think it's fairer to say that the German population is opposed to the idea of surveillance, especially when it happens in public. It's also worth pointing out that "opposition" in this case is extremely tame. The most intense and prolonged protests (not counting the recurring riots surrounding events like G20 or the yearly Mayday protests) Germany has seen in recent history were over COVID measures and even those were pretty mild and didn't do anything. Germans like to complain, but protests usually just fizzle out or lead to delays at best. I think even interest in privacy is waning. Ever since companies have been dragging their heels and making users run through (often outright illegal) cookie consent popups I've been hearing people complain more about privacy protections than about privacy abuses. The attempts to portray these laws as "red tape" have been very effective.
- hef19898 4y ago
  And your source for that is?
  - orangepurple 4y ago
    Its members and their knowledge lived on for another day, another chance.

thenaturalist 4y ago

Hi there, could you be more specific, or could you provide any sources related to your claims?

ChuckNorris89 4y ago
Not him, but what I assume he's referring to is the usual cases in Germany where if you torrent a book, a movie, or an mp3 without a VPN, you'll instantly be served a threatening letter from the likes of GEMA, Axel-Springer, or some independent law firm who have your info from your ISP who tracks you, and they'll ask you to pay a fine for your illegal copyright violation or they'll threaten to take you to court on behalf of the film & record companies, where some 80 year old boomer judge who doesn't understand how the internet works, will instantly side with Axel-Springer because they're an old, big, rich, respected German corporation with reputable lawyers who have a history with the judge, and you're not. Reddit is chock full of expats in Germany who got burned by this. And also the locals, but rare because they know how the system works. In Germany it's difficult to defend yourself in court against copyright bullying from big corporations if you don't have deep pockets for a top lawyer, as there's no jury trials, nor double jeopardy, like in the US, so you're at the mercy of a major corporation with unlimited money and an old judge who has read about the internet in the newspaper, so people will instantly fold and stop what they're doing and pay whatever bullshit fine they're issued even when they do nothing illegal because paying the fine is cheaper than battling in court. Honestly, Americans take for granted some of the freedoms they have online and in their justice system. Look up the case of Axel-Springer suing the company that created AdBlock. Luckily Axel lost the first round[1], but it's scary how bold these companies are in Germany as many private individuals don't have the means to defend themselves in curt against such an entity. [1] https://digiday.com/media/axel-springer-reinvigorates-legal-fight-ad-blocking/ https://digiday.com/media/axel-springer-reinvigorates-legal-...
- miroljub 4y ago
  This is the wrong example. The fact is that there is a whole industry in Germany that whose only purpose is to find out something illegal you did and then sue you doesn't change the fact that piracy is still illegal in Germany. According to German, and many other law systems, piracy is stealing, it's just that in Germany they are enforcing it strictly thanks to those private firms. There's no such thing as "downloading an mp3 or a book" by an accident. You know that you are downloading something illegally. And that 80-year-old judge understands something you don't, that the internet is a neutral medium which doesn't make local laws void just because "you downloaded it from the internet".

hnbad 4y ago

For what it's worth, a recent court opinion suggests that the Schufa credit score may be in violation of EU law.

dgellow 4y ago
Do you have a source? That would be fantastic
- Arnt 4y ago
  Not a big change. Schufa uses data from the last [period], court said [shorter period]. I don't recall the details of the two periods.
- hnbad 4y ago
  It seems to be an expert witness assessment in the active course case, not the opinion of the court itself, apparently, but the reporting here and elsewhere seems optimistic: https://www.t-online.de/finanzen/ratgeber/verbraucher/id_100145870/schufa-score-verstoesst-gegen-eu-recht-das-sind-die-folgen.html https://www.t-online.de/finanzen/ratgeber/verbraucher/id_100... Schufa already had to cut their storage duration for data regarding private bankruptcy so there's definitely blood in the water.

eastendguy 4y ago

What has a "German copyright cease and desist" to do with privacy, or the lack of privacy? And who is "them"? A few sources and details instead of just ranting would be useful.

expertentipp 4y ago
[flagged]
newaccount74 4y ago
If I recall correctly, some of these "cease and desist" cases involved tricking people into sharing specific copyrighted material, then asking the internet providers to identify users who violated copyright, and sending them cease an desist letters together with an invoice (which seems to be peculiarity of the German legal system). If people had stronger privacy, these sorts of things wouldn't work.

Gasp0de 4y ago

That sounds like complete bullshit. Why would the German government bully you? And if it was some random German lawyers (which it sounds like) what does that have to do with anything related to this article?