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For more context: "Over 25% of all new cars sold in China in 2022 were electric."

qikInNdOutReply 4y ago
https://www.carbonbrief.org/mapped-worlds-coal-power-plants/ https://www.carbonbrief.org/mapped-worlds-coal-power-plants/ So.. its switching from petrol to coal? Unless they really ramp up nuclear and solar. Which they did not so far.. And dont forget, the first 100.000 kilometers of energy are already spent driving of the lot, building a new car. So fading away old cars as slow as possible is the most energy efficient strategy?
- andylynch 4y ago
  That would still be a win for cities there. But it looks like coal and non-renewables' share of electricity there is now declining too, from roughly 4/5 to 2/3 in the last decade* (a lot of that is due to wind energy, which is rapidly ramping up there. * https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/share-electricity-coal?tab=chart&country=CHN~OWID_WRL~OECD+%28BP%29 https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/share-electricity-coal?ta...
  - qikInNdOutReply 4y ago
    Yes, the share is dropping, but the overall cake is growing, resulting in coal still expanding.
  - albertopv 4y ago
    China is building and planning new coal power plants more than the rest of the world combined. Share it's droppibg but China alone will pollute much more than everyone else combined.
- pigsty 4y ago
  Coal is awful, but also keep in mind that it’s shipped to centralized locations to be burned. Gas for cars is shipped to a distribution center, loaded onto trucks that are immensely heavy and require loads of fuel to haul, shipped to a local distribution center, loaded onto trucks, driven somewhere else, pumped into a station, then those trucks drive back, and people often drive out of their way for gas instead of just charging at their destination. (Nobody has a gas station at their house and few desirable stores include gas stations) It’s entirely possible that this process ends up using more energy than just burning coal. https://www.forbes.com/sites/mikescott/2020/03/30/yes-electric-cars-are-cleaner-even-when-the-power-comes-from-coal/?sh=590ae56f2320 https://www.forbes.com/sites/mikescott/2020/03/30/yes-electr...
- Sankozi 4y ago
  Where do you get all that misleading information? > So.. its switching from petrol to coal? Switching from burning fossil fuels in tiny inefficient engine to burning them in modern power plant is already a very positive change. > Unless they really ramp up nuclear and solar. Which they did not so far.. Really? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_power_in_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_power_in_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_power_in_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_power_in_China > And dont forget, the first 100.000 kilometers of energy are already spent driving of the lot, building a new car. So fading away old cars as slow as possible is the most energy efficient strategy? No it is not a good strategy. It is better to replace oldest cars first, because they are usually least efficient, but even if you replace new ICE car, that car does not disappear - it will probably be sold and replace old, less efficient ICE car.
- bdcravens 4y ago
  Assuming they never move away from fossil fuels, it's still a win. Electricity is far more efficient at converting energy into movement than fossil fuels (roughly 75% vs 15%) Also, solar is absolutely growing in China, growing by roughly 30% in 2023: https://www.reuters.com/world/china/china-solar-power-capacity-could-post-record-growth-2023-2023-02-16 https://www.reuters.com/world/china/china-solar-power-capaci...
  - haveabanana 4y ago
    >Electricity is far more efficient at converting energy into movement than fossil fuels (roughly 75% vs 15%) This metric could also be described as: "what percentage of the total energy content of your car's fuel tank will be converted into kinetic energy?" What is the point of this metric? Solar panels are less efficent at converting incident sunlight into electricity, than fossil-fueled power stations are at converting hydrocarbons into electricity. The same applies for wind turbines converting kinetic energy into electricity. Blindly taking the "efficiency" of one tiny step in the process of converting an energy source into automotive propulsion will lead to some absurd conclusions.
- henry_viii 4y ago
  > Unless they really ramp up nuclear China is ramping up nuclear: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2021-11-02/china-climate-goals-hinge-on-440-billion-nuclear-power-plan-to-rival-u-s https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2021-11-02/china-cli... > The first 100.000 kilometers of energy are already spent driving of the lot, building a new car China is the leader of electric 2-seater cars (Wuling Mini, Geely Panda Mini). Comparison between a Wuling Mini and a Tesla Model 3: - battery weight: ~100 kg vs. 500+ kg - total weight: ~600 kg vs. 1,600+ kg - retail price: ~5,000 EUR vs. ~50,000 EUR I doubt it takes as much energy to break even on a Wuling Mini than it does on a Model 3. A better question would be - why should Europeans be excluded from affordable electric Chinese cars because of the political chess between the US and China?
wil421 4y ago
How many of the 25% are what we would consider tricked out golf carts in the US?
- ygra 4y ago
  Well, that doesn't really matter, does it? Vehicles provide transportation from A to B for occupants and cargo. If a small vehicle suffices, then larger ones shouldn't be necessary. Of course, this is also a challenge for planning infrastructure in a way that large vehicles are not necessary in population centers (which should, by definition, be built for people, not large cars).
- pjc50 4y ago
  The US has a very distorted view of what a "normal car" is by size.
- bdcravens 4y ago
  Many gas cars in China aren't much bigger. Your average SUV in the US is what much of the world would consider a cargo truck.
- shakow 4y ago
  And? As long it gets the job done, problem solved. Using a 2.5tons F150 guzzling 12l/100km to buy grocery or commute should not be seen as the ultimate goal. Just for fun: most sold car in the US (F150) vs. most sold car in France (208) https://www.carsized.com/en/cars/compare/peugeot-208-2019-5-door-hatchback-vs-ford-f150-2014-4-door-pickup-supercrew-5.5/ https://www.carsized.com/en/cars/compare/peugeot-208-2019-5-...
  - tyingq 4y ago
    I would guess GP was talking about safety, not trying to promote oversized cars. Edit: There's a specific bottom end part of the market with small Chinese cars that have horrible safety problems.
    - CalRobert 4y ago

https://www.carbonbrief.org/mapped-worlds-coal-power-plants/ https://www.carbonbrief.org/mapped-worlds-coal-power-plants/ So.. its switching from petrol to coal? Unless they really ramp up nuclear and solar. Which they did not so far.. And dont forget, the first 100.000 kilometers of energy are already spent driving of the lot, building a new car. So fading away old cars as slow as possible is the most energy efficient strategy?

andylynch 4y ago
That would still be a win for cities there. But it looks like coal and non-renewables' share of electricity there is now declining too, from roughly 4/5 to 2/3 in the last decade* (a lot of that is due to wind energy, which is rapidly ramping up there. * https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/share-electricity-coal?tab=chart&country=CHN~OWID_WRL~OECD+%28BP%29 https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/share-electricity-coal?ta...
- qikInNdOutReply 4y ago
  Yes, the share is dropping, but the overall cake is growing, resulting in coal still expanding.
- albertopv 4y ago
  China is building and planning new coal power plants more than the rest of the world combined. Share it's droppibg but China alone will pollute much more than everyone else combined.
pigsty 4y ago
Coal is awful, but also keep in mind that it’s shipped to centralized locations to be burned. Gas for cars is shipped to a distribution center, loaded onto trucks that are immensely heavy and require loads of fuel to haul, shipped to a local distribution center, loaded onto trucks, driven somewhere else, pumped into a station, then those trucks drive back, and people often drive out of their way for gas instead of just charging at their destination. (Nobody has a gas station at their house and few desirable stores include gas stations) It’s entirely possible that this process ends up using more energy than just burning coal. https://www.forbes.com/sites/mikescott/2020/03/30/yes-electric-cars-are-cleaner-even-when-the-power-comes-from-coal/?sh=590ae56f2320 https://www.forbes.com/sites/mikescott/2020/03/30/yes-electr...
Sankozi 4y ago
Where do you get all that misleading information? > So.. its switching from petrol to coal? Switching from burning fossil fuels in tiny inefficient engine to burning them in modern power plant is already a very positive change. > Unless they really ramp up nuclear and solar. Which they did not so far.. Really? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_power_in_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_power_in_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_power_in_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_power_in_China > And dont forget, the first 100.000 kilometers of energy are already spent driving of the lot, building a new car. So fading away old cars as slow as possible is the most energy efficient strategy? No it is not a good strategy. It is better to replace oldest cars first, because they are usually least efficient, but even if you replace new ICE car, that car does not disappear - it will probably be sold and replace old, less efficient ICE car.
bdcravens 4y ago
Assuming they never move away from fossil fuels, it's still a win. Electricity is far more efficient at converting energy into movement than fossil fuels (roughly 75% vs 15%) Also, solar is absolutely growing in China, growing by roughly 30% in 2023: https://www.reuters.com/world/china/china-solar-power-capacity-could-post-record-growth-2023-2023-02-16 https://www.reuters.com/world/china/china-solar-power-capaci...
- haveabanana 4y ago
  >Electricity is far more efficient at converting energy into movement than fossil fuels (roughly 75% vs 15%) This metric could also be described as: "what percentage of the total energy content of your car's fuel tank will be converted into kinetic energy?" What is the point of this metric? Solar panels are less efficent at converting incident sunlight into electricity, than fossil-fueled power stations are at converting hydrocarbons into electricity. The same applies for wind turbines converting kinetic energy into electricity. Blindly taking the "efficiency" of one tiny step in the process of converting an energy source into automotive propulsion will lead to some absurd conclusions.
henry_viii 4y ago
> Unless they really ramp up nuclear China is ramping up nuclear: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2021-11-02/china-climate-goals-hinge-on-440-billion-nuclear-power-plan-to-rival-u-s https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2021-11-02/china-cli... > The first 100.000 kilometers of energy are already spent driving of the lot, building a new car China is the leader of electric 2-seater cars (Wuling Mini, Geely Panda Mini). Comparison between a Wuling Mini and a Tesla Model 3: - battery weight: ~100 kg vs. 500+ kg - total weight: ~600 kg vs. 1,600+ kg - retail price: ~5,000 EUR vs. ~50,000 EUR I doubt it takes as much energy to break even on a Wuling Mini than it does on a Model 3. A better question would be - why should Europeans be excluded from affordable electric Chinese cars because of the political chess between the US and China?

wil421 4y ago

How many of the 25% are what we would consider tricked out golf carts in the US?

ygra 4y ago
Well, that doesn't really matter, does it? Vehicles provide transportation from A to B for occupants and cargo. If a small vehicle suffices, then larger ones shouldn't be necessary. Of course, this is also a challenge for planning infrastructure in a way that large vehicles are not necessary in population centers (which should, by definition, be built for people, not large cars).
pjc50 4y ago
The US has a very distorted view of what a "normal car" is by size.
bdcravens 4y ago
Many gas cars in China aren't much bigger. Your average SUV in the US is what much of the world would consider a cargo truck.
shakow 4y ago
And? As long it gets the job done, problem solved. Using a 2.5tons F150 guzzling 12l/100km to buy grocery or commute should not be seen as the ultimate goal. Just for fun: most sold car in the US (F150) vs. most sold car in France (208) https://www.carsized.com/en/cars/compare/peugeot-208-2019-5-door-hatchback-vs-ford-f150-2014-4-door-pickup-supercrew-5.5/ https://www.carsized.com/en/cars/compare/peugeot-208-2019-5-...
- tyingq 4y ago
  I would guess GP was talking about safety, not trying to promote oversized cars. Edit: There's a specific bottom end part of the market with small Chinese cars that have horrible safety problems.
  - CalRobert 4y ago