4 ms·

Are you saying Joseph Cox from Vice has been paid to be critical of the act? EFF and ACLU also came out against this, have they been paid too?

by angio 4y ago

jjcon 4y ago
No, that isn't what astroturfing typically implies. Astroturfing is spreading FUD and misinformation in more automatable or massive ways, which in turn will cause articles to be written that echo these misinterpretations or misinformation. EFF and ACLU don't exactly have much credibility left in my book, but that is a personal opinion. EFF is still defending Internet Archive in the pirated books scheme. ACLU has retreated from the USA first amendment, which was their main organizational principle. Not exactly a moral high ground anymore. https://www.wsj.com/public/resources/documents/20180621ACLU.pdf https://www.wsj.com/public/resources/documents/20180621ACLU.... https://www.eff.org/cases/hachette-v-internet-archive https://www.eff.org/cases/hachette-v-internet-archive
- WillPostForFood 4y ago
  The FUD here is the overhyped risk of TikTok. Facebook didn't flip the election in 2016, and TikTok can't brainwash you in 2023. TikTok didn't read your mail, steal your bank account, listen to your calls. If it did, let's get Tim Cook to testify about exactly how it happened (it didn't happen).
  - dd36 4y ago
    Media can brain wash you…
    - bioemerl 4y ago
      Everyone who thinks maybe it doesn't have real effects on society has missed to the last 10 or so years. Even if you aren't, you're some superhuman apparently, you live in a society with millions of people who will very much fall over and will very much end up opposing the future of your country. Look at healthy misinformation machines managed to turn the republicans from incredibly anti-Russia literally saying they are the biggest threat in the world a couple of election cycles ago, to the party with people calling for us to just hand Ukraine to them China was implicated not too long ago with meddling in Canada's elections. They are absolutely going to use this advantage on us.
- kevingadd 4y ago
  Describing IA as a "pirated books scheme" and the ACLU's case selection guidelines as "retreating from the first amendment" is some pretty heavily weighted language that... I dare say sort of feels like misinformation or misinterpretation. I'm personally not even a big fan of the ACLU but you're really taking an inch and turning it into a mile here which feels kind of unnecessary.
  - jjcon 4y ago
    Neither of these are just my personal hot takes. EFF and IA are far and away on the wrong side of the law here regardless of jurisdiction or interpretation. You can't say that is just my personal "misinformation" when they were just ruled against by a US district judge on the merits of the case: https://www.reuters.com/legal/us-judge-rules-internet-archives-digital-book-lending-violates-copyrights-2023-03-25/ https://www.reuters.com/legal/us-judge-rules-internet-archiv... Former board member of ACLU on the current ACLU: https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-aclu-retreats-from-free-expression-1529533065 https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-aclu-retreats-from-free-exp...
    - Kbelicius 4y ago
      Regarding EEF and IA you seem to be conflating law and morality.
      - jjcon 4y ago
        The law is informed by human morality, they both retreated from upholding the law and in my opinion they lose the moral high ground simultaneously. That isn’t conflating, that’s stating what they did legally and then also stating my moral opinion on the matter
  - tsimionescu 4y ago
    They're not describing IA itself as a "pirated books scheme", they are describing IA's online book lending program for books they didn't have as a "pirated books scheme". And the ACLU has recently voted to stop protecting the 1st Ammendment rights of those expressing certain hostile opinions relatively recently, so I think that description is quite apt as well.
RobotToaster 4y ago
With the number of people being accused of being commies, it's beginning to feel like the "good old days" of the John Birch society.
JumpCrisscross 4y ago
> Joseph Cox from Vice has been paid to be critical of the act Astroturfing isn’t the right term. Group think seems more appropriate. Cox is writing what will get clicks. (Note that zero lawyers are quoted.) This happens on both sides in any political debate, and of course vested interests, including foreign interests, will throw gasoline on the process. (The EFF and ACLU’s have more merit.)
- badcppdev 4y ago
  Do you mean group think or polarisation of the debate?
FpUser 4y ago
Add Louis Rossman to the list. He has couple of good videos on the subject.

Are you saying Joseph Cox from Vice has been paid to be critical of the act? EFF and ACLU also came out against this, have they been paid too?

by angio 4y ago

Are you saying Joseph Cox from Vice has been paid to be critical of the act? EFF and ACLU also came out against this, have they been paid too?

jjcon 4y ago

No, that isn't what astroturfing typically implies. Astroturfing is spreading FUD and misinformation in more automatable or massive ways, which in turn will cause articles to be written that echo these misinterpretations or misinformation. EFF and ACLU don't exactly have much credibility left in my book, but that is a personal opinion. EFF is still defending Internet Archive in the pirated books scheme. ACLU has retreated from the USA first amendment, which was their main organizational principle. Not exactly a moral high ground anymore. https://www.wsj.com/public/resources/documents/20180621ACLU.pdf https://www.wsj.com/public/resources/documents/20180621ACLU.... https://www.eff.org/cases/hachette-v-internet-archive https://www.eff.org/cases/hachette-v-internet-archive

WillPostForFood 4y ago
The FUD here is the overhyped risk of TikTok. Facebook didn't flip the election in 2016, and TikTok can't brainwash you in 2023. TikTok didn't read your mail, steal your bank account, listen to your calls. If it did, let's get Tim Cook to testify about exactly how it happened (it didn't happen).
- dd36 4y ago
  Media can brain wash you…
  - bioemerl 4y ago
    Everyone who thinks maybe it doesn't have real effects on society has missed to the last 10 or so years. Even if you aren't, you're some superhuman apparently, you live in a society with millions of people who will very much fall over and will very much end up opposing the future of your country. Look at healthy misinformation machines managed to turn the republicans from incredibly anti-Russia literally saying they are the biggest threat in the world a couple of election cycles ago, to the party with people calling for us to just hand Ukraine to them China was implicated not too long ago with meddling in Canada's elections. They are absolutely going to use this advantage on us.
kevingadd 4y ago
Describing IA as a "pirated books scheme" and the ACLU's case selection guidelines as "retreating from the first amendment" is some pretty heavily weighted language that... I dare say sort of feels like misinformation or misinterpretation. I'm personally not even a big fan of the ACLU but you're really taking an inch and turning it into a mile here which feels kind of unnecessary.
- jjcon 4y ago
  Neither of these are just my personal hot takes. EFF and IA are far and away on the wrong side of the law here regardless of jurisdiction or interpretation. You can't say that is just my personal "misinformation" when they were just ruled against by a US district judge on the merits of the case: https://www.reuters.com/legal/us-judge-rules-internet-archives-digital-book-lending-violates-copyrights-2023-03-25/ https://www.reuters.com/legal/us-judge-rules-internet-archiv... Former board member of ACLU on the current ACLU: https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-aclu-retreats-from-free-expression-1529533065 https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-aclu-retreats-from-free-exp...
  - Kbelicius 4y ago
    Regarding EEF and IA you seem to be conflating law and morality.
    - jjcon 4y ago
      The law is informed by human morality, they both retreated from upholding the law and in my opinion they lose the moral high ground simultaneously. That isn’t conflating, that’s stating what they did legally and then also stating my moral opinion on the matter
- tsimionescu 4y ago
  They're not describing IA itself as a "pirated books scheme", they are describing IA's online book lending program for books they didn't have as a "pirated books scheme". And the ACLU has recently voted to stop protecting the 1st Ammendment rights of those expressing certain hostile opinions relatively recently, so I think that description is quite apt as well.

RobotToaster 4y ago

With the number of people being accused of being commies, it's beginning to feel like the "good old days" of the John Birch society.

JumpCrisscross 4y ago

> Joseph Cox from Vice has been paid to be critical of the act Astroturfing isn’t the right term. Group think seems more appropriate. Cox is writing what will get clicks. (Note that zero lawyers are quoted.) This happens on both sides in any political debate, and of course vested interests, including foreign interests, will throw gasoline on the process. (The EFF and ACLU’s have more merit.)

badcppdev 4y ago
Do you mean group think or polarisation of the debate?

FpUser 4y ago

Add Louis Rossman to the list. He has couple of good videos on the subject.