4 ms·

> "Legalization" is absolutely worse. Millions of dead sooner and with more collateral damage. Portugal tried. In 2001, they decriminalized the possession of a

> "Legalization" is absolutely worse. Millions of dead sooner and with more collateral damage. Portugal tried. In 2001, they decriminalized the possession of all drugs for personal use and started treating drug possession as a medical issue instead of a criminal issue. Ever since, Portugals rate of drug addiction and drug death is below the EU average. The policy is considered a success. It reduced harm for the addicted and at the same time, reduced the social costs of drug addiction. The rate of HIV, Hepatitis infection and other side effects of drug addiction dropped significantly. See https://transformdrugs.org/blog/drug-decriminalisation-in-portugal-setting-the-record-straight https://transformdrugs.org/blog/drug-decriminalisation-in-po... Now, they didn’t just legalize drugs, but put the money they saved on the enforcement side into rehab, clean needle and other flanking programs, essentially “giving” it to the addicts. This may seem unpalatable to many, but the outcome is a win for everyone.

LawTalkingGuy 4y ago
Portugal didn't decriminalize anything. They still pick you up against your will and detain you for years while not giving you drugs and forcing you to work. The only semblance of decriminalization is that if you cooperate and don't try to escape they don't give you a criminal record. They use the criminal justice system and the underlying crime of public use and unsafe intoxication to force you into rehab, which is the very definition of criminalized.
- mylidlpony 4y ago
  Do you have any links to back up those claims? Every single article about Portugal's drug situation I've seen seems to disagree with you.
  - LawTalkingGuy 4y ago
    As a part-time resident of two major drug cities I've been looking for that article. I just have to read between the lines and contrast it with the results we get from the same words. It should be obvious when reading a story about Portugal that they couldn't get the junkie to stay in rehab voluntarily, so obviously they don't mean "no potential of a criminal charge at all". Whereas in Vancouver they specifically changed the rules so you can buy and do drugs in front of the police, pass out and almost die - get revived and smoke more drugs, and have no charges, no special detainment, nothing.
    - mrguyorama 4y ago
      "I have no source or evidence so just keep taking my word at face value"
      - LawTalkingGuy 4y ago
        My source is my eyes. I drove through the local drug camp recently and saw a dealer dealing within a stone's throw from police in their car, and junkies passed out just steps from him. There's a ton of evidence, but you could search for it if you really wanted and you didn't. What I haven't found is a single short and simple article that explains for ... people like you, that what Vancouver/Seattle/Portland/SF and Portugal mean by decriminalization is not the same.
        mylidlpony 4y ago
        Your eyes have no value in this conversation. If you can only back up your claims with "trust me bro", they are irrelevant.
        LawTalkingGuy 4y ago
        What issue do you have that makes you incapable of searching for references and yet still able to whine about that incapability online? And what are you actually looking for a reference for? That there are drug encampments? That some cities have literally made it legal to buy and sell Fentanyl? You have been told something exists, that's 95% of the way there. Now go to a search engine and type 'vancouver drug decriminalization' and 'Portugal drug treatment' and read about the issue. You're trying so very hard to use me to justify your ignorance and to be insulting in the process.
        mylidlpony 4y ago
        I googled the phrase 'Portugal drug treatment' and found out what I was suspecting from the start - which is, everything I saw previously was correct and they indeed decriminalized all drugs up to certain weight and still jail dealers. This goes against the claims that you previously made that they did not have a decriminalization, and the next one about criminal record also doesn't make any sense in this context - what would the criminal record be, a gram of weed?
- ligmastructure 4y ago
  It's decriminalized. That's literally the word. It's still illegal to possess controlled substances, but not a crime right away. There's a published list [1] of illegal substances and what quantities constitute as "personal use" (like 25g of weed or 5g of hash - translated in "individual doses"). More than that you can be trialed for drug dealing, which is a fair trade-off. Yes it's still illegal to possess any of these substances, but what happens is that if you're below the "criminal" threshold, you get a doctor/shrink appointment and usually pay a small fine (around 25 euros). Nothing gets written to your criminal record. Repeated offenders might have more several penalties like community service. Recently there's been a surge in homelessness and harder drug consumption, analog to the rest of Europe, due to a huge housing crisis, very stagnant salaries and overall poor quality of life here (in Portugal). [1]: https://dre.pt/dre/legislacao-consolidada/decreto-lei/1993-58872437 https://dre.pt/dre/legislacao-consolidada/decreto-lei/1993-5...
  - LawTalkingGuy 4y ago
    That's not how it's used in North America and thus it's not the impression our pundits are trying to give when they use it to reference you. Here, decriminalized is uncontrolled. You can buy your fentanyl in front of a cop and do it in public. Cops can't arrest you for it. There is a maximum amount but it's huge! Pot is still limited though, and you can be arrested for having more than an ounce but you can't be arrested for carrying enough fentanyl to kill an entire building of people. This has been done so that there's no way to force people into rehab, so they're a continual source of income for the taxpayer funded "charities" that provide for them.
    - lazyasciiart 4y ago
      This is not true. That's exactly how it is used in North America.

LawTalkingGuy 4y ago

Portugal didn't decriminalize anything. They still pick you up against your will and detain you for years while not giving you drugs and forcing you to work. The only semblance of decriminalization is that if you cooperate and don't try to escape they don't give you a criminal record. They use the criminal justice system and the underlying crime of public use and unsafe intoxication to force you into rehab, which is the very definition of criminalized.

mylidlpony 4y ago
Do you have any links to back up those claims? Every single article about Portugal's drug situation I've seen seems to disagree with you.
- LawTalkingGuy 4y ago
  As a part-time resident of two major drug cities I've been looking for that article. I just have to read between the lines and contrast it with the results we get from the same words. It should be obvious when reading a story about Portugal that they couldn't get the junkie to stay in rehab voluntarily, so obviously they don't mean "no potential of a criminal charge at all". Whereas in Vancouver they specifically changed the rules so you can buy and do drugs in front of the police, pass out and almost die - get revived and smoke more drugs, and have no charges, no special detainment, nothing.
  - mrguyorama 4y ago
    "I have no source or evidence so just keep taking my word at face value"
    - LawTalkingGuy 4y ago
      My source is my eyes. I drove through the local drug camp recently and saw a dealer dealing within a stone's throw from police in their car, and junkies passed out just steps from him. There's a ton of evidence, but you could search for it if you really wanted and you didn't. What I haven't found is a single short and simple article that explains for ... people like you, that what Vancouver/Seattle/Portland/SF and Portugal mean by decriminalization is not the same.
      - mylidlpony 4y ago
        Your eyes have no value in this conversation. If you can only back up your claims with "trust me bro", they are irrelevant.
        LawTalkingGuy 4y ago
        What issue do you have that makes you incapable of searching for references and yet still able to whine about that incapability online? And what are you actually looking for a reference for? That there are drug encampments? That some cities have literally made it legal to buy and sell Fentanyl? You have been told something exists, that's 95% of the way there. Now go to a search engine and type 'vancouver drug decriminalization' and 'Portugal drug treatment' and read about the issue. You're trying so very hard to use me to justify your ignorance and to be insulting in the process.
        mylidlpony 4y ago
        I googled the phrase 'Portugal drug treatment' and found out what I was suspecting from the start - which is, everything I saw previously was correct and they indeed decriminalized all drugs up to certain weight and still jail dealers. This goes against the claims that you previously made that they did not have a decriminalization, and the next one about criminal record also doesn't make any sense in this context - what would the criminal record be, a gram of weed?
ligmastructure 4y ago
It's decriminalized. That's literally the word. It's still illegal to possess controlled substances, but not a crime right away. There's a published list [1] of illegal substances and what quantities constitute as "personal use" (like 25g of weed or 5g of hash - translated in "individual doses"). More than that you can be trialed for drug dealing, which is a fair trade-off. Yes it's still illegal to possess any of these substances, but what happens is that if you're below the "criminal" threshold, you get a doctor/shrink appointment and usually pay a small fine (around 25 euros). Nothing gets written to your criminal record. Repeated offenders might have more several penalties like community service. Recently there's been a surge in homelessness and harder drug consumption, analog to the rest of Europe, due to a huge housing crisis, very stagnant salaries and overall poor quality of life here (in Portugal). [1]: https://dre.pt/dre/legislacao-consolidada/decreto-lei/1993-58872437 https://dre.pt/dre/legislacao-consolidada/decreto-lei/1993-5...
- LawTalkingGuy 4y ago
  That's not how it's used in North America and thus it's not the impression our pundits are trying to give when they use it to reference you. Here, decriminalized is uncontrolled. You can buy your fentanyl in front of a cop and do it in public. Cops can't arrest you for it. There is a maximum amount but it's huge! Pot is still limited though, and you can be arrested for having more than an ounce but you can't be arrested for carrying enough fentanyl to kill an entire building of people. This has been done so that there's no way to force people into rehab, so they're a continual source of income for the taxpayer funded "charities" that provide for them.
  - lazyasciiart 4y ago
    This is not true. That's exactly how it is used in North America.