18 ms·

>go after supply and possession again that achieved 0 results in 40+ years of drug warfare with millions dead and the rise of international cartels who are as

>go after supply and possession again that achieved 0 results in 40+ years of drug warfare with millions dead and the rise of international cartels who are as powerful as nation states. This is not the way, complete legalization is the only way to break the power of cartels.

LawTalkingGuy 4y ago
"Legalization" is absolutely worse. Millions of dead sooner and with more collateral damage. You don't have to legalize the drug, simply giving it to existing junkies for free by prescription for a while would allow you to break the cartels. Also, actually do break the cartels like Ecuador is doing, with life sentences or death. The problem with the methods we've used is that we've used them piecemeal and inconsistently. Once the pushers are gone you force the junkies into rehab. Then when there's no epidemic you could actually legalize to prevent a black market from returning.
- Xylakant 4y ago
  > "Legalization" is absolutely worse. Millions of dead sooner and with more collateral damage. Portugal tried. In 2001, they decriminalized the possession of all drugs for personal use and started treating drug possession as a medical issue instead of a criminal issue. Ever since, Portugals rate of drug addiction and drug death is below the EU average. The policy is considered a success. It reduced harm for the addicted and at the same time, reduced the social costs of drug addiction. The rate of HIV, Hepatitis infection and other side effects of drug addiction dropped significantly. See https://transformdrugs.org/blog/drug-decriminalisation-in-portugal-setting-the-record-straight https://transformdrugs.org/blog/drug-decriminalisation-in-po... Now, they didn’t just legalize drugs, but put the money they saved on the enforcement side into rehab, clean needle and other flanking programs, essentially “giving” it to the addicts. This may seem unpalatable to many, but the outcome is a win for everyone.
  - LawTalkingGuy 4y ago
    Portugal didn't decriminalize anything. They still pick you up against your will and detain you for years while not giving you drugs and forcing you to work. The only semblance of decriminalization is that if you cooperate and don't try to escape they don't give you a criminal record. They use the criminal justice system and the underlying crime of public use and unsafe intoxication to force you into rehab, which is the very definition of criminalized.
    - mylidlpony 4y ago
      Do you have any links to back up those claims? Every single article about Portugal's drug situation I've seen seems to disagree with you.
      - LawTalkingGuy 4y ago
        As a part-time resident of two major drug cities I've been looking for that article. I just have to read between the lines and contrast it with the results we get from the same words. It should be obvious when reading a story about Portugal that they couldn't get the junkie to stay in rehab voluntarily, so obviously they don't mean "no potential of a criminal charge at all". Whereas in Vancouver they specifically changed the rules so you can buy and do drugs in front of the police, pass out and almost die - get revived and smoke more drugs, and have no charges, no special detainment, nothing.
        mrguyorama 4y ago
        "I have no source or evidence so just keep taking my word at face value"
        LawTalkingGuy 4y ago
        My source is my eyes. I drove through the local drug camp recently and saw a dealer dealing within a stone's throw from police in their car, and junkies passed out just steps from him. There's a ton of evidence, but you could search for it if you really wanted and you didn't. What I haven't found is a single short and simple article that explains for ... people like you, that what Vancouver/Seattle/Portland/SF and Portugal mean by decriminalization is not the same.
- achenet 4y ago
  what about a state monopoly, like alcohol in Sweden? [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systembolaget https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systembolaget
  - notch898a 4y ago
    What's wrong with just having the FDA ensure the purity and selling it in the locked condoms cabinet at walmart?
    - Jochim 4y ago
      Purdue showed how well that approach works out with the even more restricted Oxycontin.
      - zamnos 4y ago
        Did they? It seems the problems started when they started cracking down and people had to resort to street heroin, and later fentanyl to get pain relief. If there were an easy, legal way to get oxycontin, I bet the majority of the problems of people dying from fake oxycontin laced with fentanyl would go away overnight.
        Jochim 4y ago
        Purdue had a financial interest in selling more Oxycontin. They knowingly pushed doctors to prescribe the medication in a manner that encouraged addiction. They knowingly misled patients and doctors as to how addictive the medication was. Cutting the supply off without any alternatives absolutely caused harm. However, that only serves as evidence that safe and legal means of procurement are better than illegal ones. If there had been a network of state dispensaries to provide safe regulated doses and support, over-prescription could have been stopped without leaving the victims to fend for themselves.
        notch898a 4y ago
        There's a segment of junkies who don't want drug treatment, just to get high at all costs. I spend almost daily talking to people that are professionals in this area (not a junky myself, just related to medical providers) and it's an everyday occurrence that people will come in, completely trick the medical providers for a daily or whatever short-term fix they're allowed with minimal privileges, and then use it to supplant their black market addiction. You can let them pursue their dream at black market prices while they bust into cars and inject god knows what of random purity. I'd much rather they just be able to buy it for $0.10 at walmart and beg for a dime outside the gas station, and know exactly what they're getting. I'm not disagreeing about access to treatment, but just to be clear I don't see much intersectionality there with stopping the black market. For so many of them it becomes "sweet I can buy my black market shit, plus get whatever the addiction center place offers me on top of that."
- notch898a 4y ago
  If someone wants to snort up a pile of rat poison, or fentanyl who am I to stop them. Let them buy Pfizer mega-OD-fentanyl-express they saw advertised on the Citybus for $0.10, and let the cartels get crushed by legal competition who have everything to lose by doing drive-bys in residential neighborhoods.
  - noduerme 4y ago
    What makes a pharma company inherently any better than a cartel? Is this just an argument to buy American?

LawTalkingGuy 4y ago

"Legalization" is absolutely worse. Millions of dead sooner and with more collateral damage. You don't have to legalize the drug, simply giving it to existing junkies for free by prescription for a while would allow you to break the cartels. Also, actually do break the cartels like Ecuador is doing, with life sentences or death. The problem with the methods we've used is that we've used them piecemeal and inconsistently. Once the pushers are gone you force the junkies into rehab. Then when there's no epidemic you could actually legalize to prevent a black market from returning.

Xylakant 4y ago
> "Legalization" is absolutely worse. Millions of dead sooner and with more collateral damage. Portugal tried. In 2001, they decriminalized the possession of all drugs for personal use and started treating drug possession as a medical issue instead of a criminal issue. Ever since, Portugals rate of drug addiction and drug death is below the EU average. The policy is considered a success. It reduced harm for the addicted and at the same time, reduced the social costs of drug addiction. The rate of HIV, Hepatitis infection and other side effects of drug addiction dropped significantly. See https://transformdrugs.org/blog/drug-decriminalisation-in-portugal-setting-the-record-straight https://transformdrugs.org/blog/drug-decriminalisation-in-po... Now, they didn’t just legalize drugs, but put the money they saved on the enforcement side into rehab, clean needle and other flanking programs, essentially “giving” it to the addicts. This may seem unpalatable to many, but the outcome is a win for everyone.
- LawTalkingGuy 4y ago
  Portugal didn't decriminalize anything. They still pick you up against your will and detain you for years while not giving you drugs and forcing you to work. The only semblance of decriminalization is that if you cooperate and don't try to escape they don't give you a criminal record. They use the criminal justice system and the underlying crime of public use and unsafe intoxication to force you into rehab, which is the very definition of criminalized.
  - mylidlpony 4y ago
    Do you have any links to back up those claims? Every single article about Portugal's drug situation I've seen seems to disagree with you.
    - LawTalkingGuy 4y ago
      As a part-time resident of two major drug cities I've been looking for that article. I just have to read between the lines and contrast it with the results we get from the same words. It should be obvious when reading a story about Portugal that they couldn't get the junkie to stay in rehab voluntarily, so obviously they don't mean "no potential of a criminal charge at all". Whereas in Vancouver they specifically changed the rules so you can buy and do drugs in front of the police, pass out and almost die - get revived and smoke more drugs, and have no charges, no special detainment, nothing.
      - mrguyorama 4y ago
        "I have no source or evidence so just keep taking my word at face value"
        LawTalkingGuy 4y ago
        My source is my eyes. I drove through the local drug camp recently and saw a dealer dealing within a stone's throw from police in their car, and junkies passed out just steps from him. There's a ton of evidence, but you could search for it if you really wanted and you didn't. What I haven't found is a single short and simple article that explains for ... people like you, that what Vancouver/Seattle/Portland/SF and Portugal mean by decriminalization is not the same.
achenet 4y ago
what about a state monopoly, like alcohol in Sweden? [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systembolaget https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systembolaget
- notch898a 4y ago
  What's wrong with just having the FDA ensure the purity and selling it in the locked condoms cabinet at walmart?
  - Jochim 4y ago
    Purdue showed how well that approach works out with the even more restricted Oxycontin.
    - zamnos 4y ago
      Did they? It seems the problems started when they started cracking down and people had to resort to street heroin, and later fentanyl to get pain relief. If there were an easy, legal way to get oxycontin, I bet the majority of the problems of people dying from fake oxycontin laced with fentanyl would go away overnight.
      - Jochim 4y ago
        Purdue had a financial interest in selling more Oxycontin. They knowingly pushed doctors to prescribe the medication in a manner that encouraged addiction. They knowingly misled patients and doctors as to how addictive the medication was. Cutting the supply off without any alternatives absolutely caused harm. However, that only serves as evidence that safe and legal means of procurement are better than illegal ones. If there had been a network of state dispensaries to provide safe regulated doses and support, over-prescription could have been stopped without leaving the victims to fend for themselves.
        notch898a 4y ago
        There's a segment of junkies who don't want drug treatment, just to get high at all costs. I spend almost daily talking to people that are professionals in this area (not a junky myself, just related to medical providers) and it's an everyday occurrence that people will come in, completely trick the medical providers for a daily or whatever short-term fix they're allowed with minimal privileges, and then use it to supplant their black market addiction. You can let them pursue their dream at black market prices while they bust into cars and inject god knows what of random purity. I'd much rather they just be able to buy it for $0.10 at walmart and beg for a dime outside the gas station, and know exactly what they're getting. I'm not disagreeing about access to treatment, but just to be clear I don't see much intersectionality there with stopping the black market. For so many of them it becomes "sweet I can buy my black market shit, plus get whatever the addiction center place offers me on top of that."
notch898a 4y ago
If someone wants to snort up a pile of rat poison, or fentanyl who am I to stop them. Let them buy Pfizer mega-OD-fentanyl-express they saw advertised on the Citybus for $0.10, and let the cartels get crushed by legal competition who have everything to lose by doing drive-bys in residential neighborhoods.
- noduerme 4y ago
  What makes a pharma company inherently any better than a cartel? Is this just an argument to buy American?