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> Using a VPN (or anything else) to access software or services provided by a “foreign adversary” maybe im missing something ...how is that not already illegal

> Using a VPN (or anything else) to access software or services provided by a “foreign adversary” maybe im missing something ...how is that not already illegal? as an example, if someone in ukraine used a vpn to access the kremlins internal networks, id assume they were a spy for russia. the terminology is vague, but at first glance stuff like the pirate bay doesnt appear to match.

vkou 4y ago
> maybe im missing something ...how is that not already illegal? Why on Earth should visiting, say, a Russian news site, or logging into VKontakte from the United States, using a VPN be illegal?
- lazystar 4y ago
  "provided by a foreign adversary" is quite a bit different than "provided by a citizen living in a region controlled by a foreign adversary". yes, a russian news site has a vested interest in supporting the russian govt, but its not the same as a web portal owned, operated, and advertised by a division of the russian govt. in other words, fox news's website is a lot different than the white house website.
  - vkou 4y ago
    > "provided by a foreign adversary" is quite a bit different than "provided by a citizen living in a region controlled by a foreign adversary". There's no meaningful difference. And even if there was one, public discourse in the United States makes it very clear that it doesn't see a meaningful distinction between the CCP and TikTok, between the Kremlin, and, say RT. It's utterly antithetical to everything western civilization stands for to imprison someone for reading. Even if what they are reading is foreign propaganda. It's shit straight out of the playbook of Stalin's[1] USSR[2]. And half this forum is arguing for it! This isn't a slow-boiling the frog moment, it's shoving us right into the incinerator. [1] Death to spies, wreckers, saboteurs and other counter-revolutionaries that oppose the freest country in the history of the world. [2] Even in Putin's Russia, you don't go to prison for reading American propaganda. This level of insecurity is baffling.
    - lazystar 4y ago
      > It's utterly antithetical to everything western civilization stands for mccarthyism, the sedition act of 1918, and the espionage act of 1917 come to mind. whatever your understanding is of what western civilization stands for - and what you are arguing we are losing - are ideals that were created long after those previous acts came and went. my point is that a set of ideals will be at risk if it is too rigid - western civilization has succeeded in part due to its flexibility in difficult circumstances. in other words, it is better to have waxes and wanes to the freedoms available to a society, than to be rigid in a set of beliefs and watch the society be lost to history.
      - vkou 4y ago
        Why turn back the clock to 1917? Why not to internment camps? Slavery? Genocide? Witch burnings? I'd rage just as much against barbarians trying to bring any of those things back, too. This isn't a question of flexibility. This isn't some existential trolley problem crisis. This is reactionary authoritarianism from a few morally bankrupt elites running a waning empire, sold under the excuse of attacking a foreign adversary.
wongarsu 4y ago
But appearing like a spy surely isn't illegal, is it? Being a spy is illegal, but because of the spying and stuff, not because you are in contract with people in Russia

vkou 4y ago

> maybe im missing something ...how is that not already illegal? Why on Earth should visiting, say, a Russian news site, or logging into VKontakte from the United States, using a VPN be illegal?

lazystar 4y ago
"provided by a foreign adversary" is quite a bit different than "provided by a citizen living in a region controlled by a foreign adversary". yes, a russian news site has a vested interest in supporting the russian govt, but its not the same as a web portal owned, operated, and advertised by a division of the russian govt. in other words, fox news's website is a lot different than the white house website.
- vkou 4y ago
  > "provided by a foreign adversary" is quite a bit different than "provided by a citizen living in a region controlled by a foreign adversary". There's no meaningful difference. And even if there was one, public discourse in the United States makes it very clear that it doesn't see a meaningful distinction between the CCP and TikTok, between the Kremlin, and, say RT. It's utterly antithetical to everything western civilization stands for to imprison someone for reading. Even if what they are reading is foreign propaganda. It's shit straight out of the playbook of Stalin's[1] USSR[2]. And half this forum is arguing for it! This isn't a slow-boiling the frog moment, it's shoving us right into the incinerator. [1] Death to spies, wreckers, saboteurs and other counter-revolutionaries that oppose the freest country in the history of the world. [2] Even in Putin's Russia, you don't go to prison for reading American propaganda. This level of insecurity is baffling.
  - lazystar 4y ago
    > It's utterly antithetical to everything western civilization stands for mccarthyism, the sedition act of 1918, and the espionage act of 1917 come to mind. whatever your understanding is of what western civilization stands for - and what you are arguing we are losing - are ideals that were created long after those previous acts came and went. my point is that a set of ideals will be at risk if it is too rigid - western civilization has succeeded in part due to its flexibility in difficult circumstances. in other words, it is better to have waxes and wanes to the freedoms available to a society, than to be rigid in a set of beliefs and watch the society be lost to history.
    - vkou 4y ago
      Why turn back the clock to 1917? Why not to internment camps? Slavery? Genocide? Witch burnings? I'd rage just as much against barbarians trying to bring any of those things back, too. This isn't a question of flexibility. This isn't some existential trolley problem crisis. This is reactionary authoritarianism from a few morally bankrupt elites running a waning empire, sold under the excuse of attacking a foreign adversary.

wongarsu 4y ago

But appearing like a spy surely isn't illegal, is it? Being a spy is illegal, but because of the spying and stuff, not because you are in contract with people in Russia