3 ms·

Liberties like abortion rights for example? Or not that kind of "liberty" then. (Paul favors a federal ban on abortion - throwing doctors and mothers in jail

by zzzeek 4y ago

Liberties like abortion rights for example? Or not that kind of "liberty" then. (Paul favors a federal ban on abortion - throwing doctors and mothers in jail for miscarriages and other medical emergencies that can't be adequately explained to the local abortion police). That's "libertarian" apparently

duringmath 4y ago
Realistically everyone has to "sell out" a little to get elected to office
bhawks 4y ago
Abortion is a pretty contentious issue for both big and small l libertarians. Generally it is not a litmus test for a person's libertarian-ness like it is for democrats and republicans. Although the libertarian party doesn't speak for all - here is a decent summary: https://www.lp.org/libertarians-on-abortion/ https://www.lp.org/libertarians-on-abortion/
- stametseater 4y ago
  > Generally it is not a litmus test for a person's libertarian-ness like it is for democrats and republicans. That litmus test will misclassify 18% of Democrat/lean Dem and 38% of Republican/lean Rep. As a litmus test for determining party affiliation, it's shit. https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/fact-sheet/public-opinion-on-abortion/ https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/fact-sheet/public-opini...
- zzzeek 4y ago
  > Generally it is not a litmus test for a person's libertarian-ness Well sure, if you define "libertarian" as "hypocritical bro who wants the government to not touch his own personal things but feel free to go nuts on women, minorities, bailing out huge banks I make use of with taxpayer money", the abortion issue is not much of a litmus test. Otherwise calling abortion a "contentious" issue for dictionary-definition libertarianism, that's something libertarians would think to make themselves feel better about supporting the most intrusive government overreach imaginable.
platevoltage 4y ago
The idea that Rand Paul is a libertarian is pretty absurd.
- duringmath 4y ago
  He's a decent facsimile.
revelio 4y ago
That's not a gotcha for libertarians because libertarianism has a whole philosophy around the use of violence, which abortion would fall under. That is libertarians do not consider there to be a right to violence except in cases of self defence. Thus it is consistent to be libertarian and not consider abortion rights to be legitimate.
- zzzeek 4y ago
  are you familiar with a procedure called a DNC ? Have you ever known anyone who had a miscarriage? Are you aware that the DNC procedure is now vaguely illegal in many states and that entire maternity wards and OB/GYN practices are literally leaving states like Texas to avoid accidental liabilities? That mothers undergoing medical emergencies are being forced to writhe in painful, life threatening scenarios for hours, as their baby dies through natural causes in any case, as doctors are now terrified to intervene? Do you know any of this? I think if you are completely ignorant of modern medicine, you should probably sit down before commenting on what "abortion" is and what the actual effect of anti-abortion laws is. sources: https://www.texastribune.org/2022/01/20/rural-hospital-texas-maternity-care-obstetrics/ https://www.texastribune.org/2022/01/20/rural-hospital-texas... https://www.cnn.com/2022/11/16/health/abortion-texas-sepsis/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2022/11/16/health/abortion-texas-sepsis/... https://www.npr.org/2023/03/07/1161486096/abortion-texas-lawsuit-women-sue-dobbs https://www.npr.org/2023/03/07/1161486096/abortion-texas-law... etc etc
  - revelio 4y ago
    [flagged]

by zzzeek 4y ago

duringmath 4y ago

Realistically everyone has to "sell out" a little to get elected to office

bhawks 4y ago

Abortion is a pretty contentious issue for both big and small l libertarians. Generally it is not a litmus test for a person's libertarian-ness like it is for democrats and republicans. Although the libertarian party doesn't speak for all - here is a decent summary: https://www.lp.org/libertarians-on-abortion/ https://www.lp.org/libertarians-on-abortion/

stametseater 4y ago
> Generally it is not a litmus test for a person's libertarian-ness like it is for democrats and republicans. That litmus test will misclassify 18% of Democrat/lean Dem and 38% of Republican/lean Rep. As a litmus test for determining party affiliation, it's shit. https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/fact-sheet/public-opinion-on-abortion/ https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/fact-sheet/public-opini...
zzzeek 4y ago
> Generally it is not a litmus test for a person's libertarian-ness Well sure, if you define "libertarian" as "hypocritical bro who wants the government to not touch his own personal things but feel free to go nuts on women, minorities, bailing out huge banks I make use of with taxpayer money", the abortion issue is not much of a litmus test. Otherwise calling abortion a "contentious" issue for dictionary-definition libertarianism, that's something libertarians would think to make themselves feel better about supporting the most intrusive government overreach imaginable.

platevoltage 4y ago

The idea that Rand Paul is a libertarian is pretty absurd.

duringmath 4y ago
He's a decent facsimile.

revelio 4y ago

That's not a gotcha for libertarians because libertarianism has a whole philosophy around the use of violence, which abortion would fall under. That is libertarians do not consider there to be a right to violence except in cases of self defence. Thus it is consistent to be libertarian and not consider abortion rights to be legitimate.

zzzeek 4y ago
are you familiar with a procedure called a DNC ? Have you ever known anyone who had a miscarriage? Are you aware that the DNC procedure is now vaguely illegal in many states and that entire maternity wards and OB/GYN practices are literally leaving states like Texas to avoid accidental liabilities? That mothers undergoing medical emergencies are being forced to writhe in painful, life threatening scenarios for hours, as their baby dies through natural causes in any case, as doctors are now terrified to intervene? Do you know any of this? I think if you are completely ignorant of modern medicine, you should probably sit down before commenting on what "abortion" is and what the actual effect of anti-abortion laws is. sources: https://www.texastribune.org/2022/01/20/rural-hospital-texas-maternity-care-obstetrics/ https://www.texastribune.org/2022/01/20/rural-hospital-texas... https://www.cnn.com/2022/11/16/health/abortion-texas-sepsis/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2022/11/16/health/abortion-texas-sepsis/... https://www.npr.org/2023/03/07/1161486096/abortion-texas-lawsuit-women-sue-dobbs https://www.npr.org/2023/03/07/1161486096/abortion-texas-law... etc etc
- revelio 4y ago
  [flagged]