4 ms·

We need more libertarians in congress, they err on the side of civil liberties and work to stop the deluge of bad laws.

zzzeek 4y ago
Liberties like abortion rights for example? Or not that kind of "liberty" then. (Paul favors a federal ban on abortion - throwing doctors and mothers in jail for miscarriages and other medical emergencies that can't be adequately explained to the local abortion police). That's "libertarian" apparently
- duringmath 4y ago
  Realistically everyone has to "sell out" a little to get elected to office
- bhawks 4y ago
  Abortion is a pretty contentious issue for both big and small l libertarians. Generally it is not a litmus test for a person's libertarian-ness like it is for democrats and republicans. Although the libertarian party doesn't speak for all - here is a decent summary: https://www.lp.org/libertarians-on-abortion/ https://www.lp.org/libertarians-on-abortion/
  - stametseater 4y ago
    > Generally it is not a litmus test for a person's libertarian-ness like it is for democrats and republicans. That litmus test will misclassify 18% of Democrat/lean Dem and 38% of Republican/lean Rep. As a litmus test for determining party affiliation, it's shit. https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/fact-sheet/public-opinion-on-abortion/ https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/fact-sheet/public-opini...
  - zzzeek 4y ago
    > Generally it is not a litmus test for a person's libertarian-ness Well sure, if you define "libertarian" as "hypocritical bro who wants the government to not touch his own personal things but feel free to go nuts on women, minorities, bailing out huge banks I make use of with taxpayer money", the abortion issue is not much of a litmus test. Otherwise calling abortion a "contentious" issue for dictionary-definition libertarianism, that's something libertarians would think to make themselves feel better about supporting the most intrusive government overreach imaginable.
- platevoltage 4y ago
  The idea that Rand Paul is a libertarian is pretty absurd.
  - duringmath 4y ago
    He's a decent facsimile.
- revelio 4y ago
  That's not a gotcha for libertarians because libertarianism has a whole philosophy around the use of violence, which abortion would fall under. That is libertarians do not consider there to be a right to violence except in cases of self defence. Thus it is consistent to be libertarian and not consider abortion rights to be legitimate.
  - zzzeek 4y ago
    are you familiar with a procedure called a DNC ? Have you ever known anyone who had a miscarriage? Are you aware that the DNC procedure is now vaguely illegal in many states and that entire maternity wards and OB/GYN practices are literally leaving states like Texas to avoid accidental liabilities? That mothers undergoing medical emergencies are being forced to writhe in painful, life threatening scenarios for hours, as their baby dies through natural causes in any case, as doctors are now terrified to intervene? Do you know any of this? I think if you are completely ignorant of modern medicine, you should probably sit down before commenting on what "abortion" is and what the actual effect of anti-abortion laws is. sources: https://www.texastribune.org/2022/01/20/rural-hospital-texas-maternity-care-obstetrics/ https://www.texastribune.org/2022/01/20/rural-hospital-texas... https://www.cnn.com/2022/11/16/health/abortion-texas-sepsis/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2022/11/16/health/abortion-texas-sepsis/... https://www.npr.org/2023/03/07/1161486096/abortion-texas-lawsuit-women-sue-dobbs https://www.npr.org/2023/03/07/1161486096/abortion-texas-law... etc etc
    - revelio 4y ago
      [flagged]
ryan_lane 4y ago
This particular libertarian has accepted large donations from ByteDance. Though I think the decision he made was ultimately correct, it's very likely he wasn't doing it out of principle, but because he wants to keep getting bribes. We should make buying politicians illegal, so that we can see their actual character.
- duringmath 4y ago
  I choose to give him the benefit of the doubt on this one.
  - ryan_lane 4y ago
    If this was a democrat, would you still give the benefit of the doubt? I simply can't trust the word of a politician that's arguing in favor of the company that bribed them.
    - duringmath 4y ago
      It's not about dems or repubs it's just that 2 parties can't possibly represent all the diverse groups and agendas in this country and a libertarian option would go a long way to remedying that. But like you said whether it's on principle or not the reason for his objection is beside the point.
- revelio 4y ago
  Isn't it more likely that he's just being consistent with his prior principles, and bytedance donated to him knowing that he'd be a reliable ally and thus wanting him to remain in Congress?
  - ryan_lane 4y ago
    Almost certainly not. It's not very likely for him to be voted out, and companies don't "hope" their dollars go toward what they want.

Liberties like abortion rights for example? Or not that kind of "liberty" then. (Paul favors a federal ban on abortion - throwing doctors and mothers in jail for miscarriages and other medical emergencies that can't be adequately explained to the local abortion police). That's "libertarian" apparently

duringmath 4y ago
Realistically everyone has to "sell out" a little to get elected to office
bhawks 4y ago
Abortion is a pretty contentious issue for both big and small l libertarians. Generally it is not a litmus test for a person's libertarian-ness like it is for democrats and republicans. Although the libertarian party doesn't speak for all - here is a decent summary: https://www.lp.org/libertarians-on-abortion/ https://www.lp.org/libertarians-on-abortion/
- stametseater 4y ago
  > Generally it is not a litmus test for a person's libertarian-ness like it is for democrats and republicans. That litmus test will misclassify 18% of Democrat/lean Dem and 38% of Republican/lean Rep. As a litmus test for determining party affiliation, it's shit. https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/fact-sheet/public-opinion-on-abortion/ https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/fact-sheet/public-opini...
- zzzeek 4y ago
  > Generally it is not a litmus test for a person's libertarian-ness Well sure, if you define "libertarian" as "hypocritical bro who wants the government to not touch his own personal things but feel free to go nuts on women, minorities, bailing out huge banks I make use of with taxpayer money", the abortion issue is not much of a litmus test. Otherwise calling abortion a "contentious" issue for dictionary-definition libertarianism, that's something libertarians would think to make themselves feel better about supporting the most intrusive government overreach imaginable.
platevoltage 4y ago
The idea that Rand Paul is a libertarian is pretty absurd.
- duringmath 4y ago
  He's a decent facsimile.
revelio 4y ago
That's not a gotcha for libertarians because libertarianism has a whole philosophy around the use of violence, which abortion would fall under. That is libertarians do not consider there to be a right to violence except in cases of self defence. Thus it is consistent to be libertarian and not consider abortion rights to be legitimate.
- zzzeek 4y ago
  are you familiar with a procedure called a DNC ? Have you ever known anyone who had a miscarriage? Are you aware that the DNC procedure is now vaguely illegal in many states and that entire maternity wards and OB/GYN practices are literally leaving states like Texas to avoid accidental liabilities? That mothers undergoing medical emergencies are being forced to writhe in painful, life threatening scenarios for hours, as their baby dies through natural causes in any case, as doctors are now terrified to intervene? Do you know any of this? I think if you are completely ignorant of modern medicine, you should probably sit down before commenting on what "abortion" is and what the actual effect of anti-abortion laws is. sources: https://www.texastribune.org/2022/01/20/rural-hospital-texas-maternity-care-obstetrics/ https://www.texastribune.org/2022/01/20/rural-hospital-texas... https://www.cnn.com/2022/11/16/health/abortion-texas-sepsis/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2022/11/16/health/abortion-texas-sepsis/... https://www.npr.org/2023/03/07/1161486096/abortion-texas-lawsuit-women-sue-dobbs https://www.npr.org/2023/03/07/1161486096/abortion-texas-law... etc etc
  - revelio 4y ago
    [flagged]

ryan_lane 4y ago

This particular libertarian has accepted large donations from ByteDance. Though I think the decision he made was ultimately correct, it's very likely he wasn't doing it out of principle, but because he wants to keep getting bribes. We should make buying politicians illegal, so that we can see their actual character.

duringmath 4y ago
I choose to give him the benefit of the doubt on this one.
- ryan_lane 4y ago
  If this was a democrat, would you still give the benefit of the doubt? I simply can't trust the word of a politician that's arguing in favor of the company that bribed them.
  - duringmath 4y ago
    It's not about dems or repubs it's just that 2 parties can't possibly represent all the diverse groups and agendas in this country and a libertarian option would go a long way to remedying that. But like you said whether it's on principle or not the reason for his objection is beside the point.
revelio 4y ago
Isn't it more likely that he's just being consistent with his prior principles, and bytedance donated to him knowing that he'd be a reliable ally and thus wanting him to remain in Congress?
- ryan_lane 4y ago
  Almost certainly not. It's not very likely for him to be voted out, and companies don't "hope" their dollars go toward what they want.