4 ms·

It's also a cultural thing. As a Frenchman, many Americans find my totally France compliant speech a bit rude. On the other hand, I find their way of calling

It's also a cultural thing. As a Frenchman, many Americans find my totally France compliant speech a bit rude. On the other hand, I find their way of calling everyone a "friend" and every single nice things "amazing" extremely annoying. But if people are adults, having a little friction is not a big deal. We don't need to appreciate all behaviors to live together. This is something that is well understood in jobs with harsh conditions, but in our very comfy IT jobs, people seem to sweat the small stuff way more.

mongol 4y ago
I want to go on a tangent here and say I completely agree. I don't know how it happened but many people around me now express how they love this or that, most things are amazing or awesome, and they click on heart emojis in Teams on more or less every message. Not sure if it is generational, or cultural or whatever. I can imitate but to me if feels odd. I prefer a more balanced language. Btw I am in a large well known company in Europe with people from all over the world, but quite young for the most part.
- etempleton 4y ago
  It felt odd to me at first too. I think it is to try and build that team culture when people are remote.
quacked 4y ago
I agree with you and can't stand the fake-friendly speak many of my countrymen use. Additionally: > But if people are adults, having a little friction is not a big deal. We don't need to appreciate all behaviors to live together. This is, in my opinion, a hilariously French thing to say. Although I am by no means an expert on France I did study the language for many years and lived with a Parisian family for a semester in college, with some travelling to the south. "Everyone is a little bit pissed off at each other, but that doesn't really bother them and they still quite enjoy life" is exactly what I thought of the French. (With the exception of my hometown culture, I preferred life in France to life in the US.)
epgui 4y ago
Yeah, for me the key thing is professionalism (a loaded word, worth an entire book). If everyone on the team "has it", then whether people are more direct or less direct probably won't matter, because everyone understands their role and their duty, and aligns their behaviours and their interpretations accordingly. Anecdotally, for every "bad situation" I've ever been in in the workplace, I could point to at least one person who was not being professional. Many disciplines have a real "culture of professionalism" (and I've operated in these disciplines prior to switching to to eng), but I don't think software engineering has that. I think it's probably related both to the relative abundance of workers without formal instruction, and to the lack of standards across academic programmes / bootcamps etc.
- lazide 4y ago
  It’s also sign (IMO) of the rapid growth in the field. When there is a severe shortage of warm bodies and things go up and to the right, a lot of ‘less important’ expectations get overlooked. When it does that for a long time, people sometimes forget why the original expectations were even there in the first place. Then, when it’s no longer up and to the right, we have to figure it all out again or it falls apart. Do it enough time and it gets embedded in official professional standards, etc. That said, I’ve certainly run across many Engineers (with the ring type) that do plenty of unprofessional things. They just figure out how to do them passive aggressively or sidestep what would run afoul of the official standards. But it’s the same thing.
  - epgui 4y ago
    That's pretty much in line with my observations as well. It's not to say that accredited engineers are automatically better, or that accredited engineering programmes are perfect, or anything like that. Like you pointed out, there's no shortage of examples/arguments to the contrary. (Personally, my background is medical, so it's a bit different than accredited engineering programmes, but I also am familiar with those having been involved in a bunch of senate-level evaluation of programmes, etc, at my school.) But I do think accredited programs have certain benefits, and that the software world should pay attention to what other engineering disciplines get right.
throwaway2037 4y ago
Your last paragraph is excellent. I never saw it expressed that way. Well said.
- phkahler 4y ago
  Yes, truly amazing! I think we found a real friend in that guy!
908B64B197 4y ago
> As a Frenchman, many Americans find my totally France compliant speech a bit rude. I call it exact. But indeed, it takes a little while to get used to it. I recall someone at a tech company here in the Bay with a French manager that thought his manager didn't like him, until he read his feedback during his first performance review. French Canadians sounds like Americans with accents.

mongol 4y ago

I want to go on a tangent here and say I completely agree. I don't know how it happened but many people around me now express how they love this or that, most things are amazing or awesome, and they click on heart emojis in Teams on more or less every message. Not sure if it is generational, or cultural or whatever. I can imitate but to me if feels odd. I prefer a more balanced language. Btw I am in a large well known company in Europe with people from all over the world, but quite young for the most part.

etempleton 4y ago
It felt odd to me at first too. I think it is to try and build that team culture when people are remote.

quacked 4y ago

I agree with you and can't stand the fake-friendly speak many of my countrymen use. Additionally: > But if people are adults, having a little friction is not a big deal. We don't need to appreciate all behaviors to live together. This is, in my opinion, a hilariously French thing to say. Although I am by no means an expert on France I did study the language for many years and lived with a Parisian family for a semester in college, with some travelling to the south. "Everyone is a little bit pissed off at each other, but that doesn't really bother them and they still quite enjoy life" is exactly what I thought of the French. (With the exception of my hometown culture, I preferred life in France to life in the US.)

epgui 4y ago

Yeah, for me the key thing is professionalism (a loaded word, worth an entire book). If everyone on the team "has it", then whether people are more direct or less direct probably won't matter, because everyone understands their role and their duty, and aligns their behaviours and their interpretations accordingly. Anecdotally, for every "bad situation" I've ever been in in the workplace, I could point to at least one person who was not being professional. Many disciplines have a real "culture of professionalism" (and I've operated in these disciplines prior to switching to to eng), but I don't think software engineering has that. I think it's probably related both to the relative abundance of workers without formal instruction, and to the lack of standards across academic programmes / bootcamps etc.

lazide 4y ago
It’s also sign (IMO) of the rapid growth in the field. When there is a severe shortage of warm bodies and things go up and to the right, a lot of ‘less important’ expectations get overlooked. When it does that for a long time, people sometimes forget why the original expectations were even there in the first place. Then, when it’s no longer up and to the right, we have to figure it all out again or it falls apart. Do it enough time and it gets embedded in official professional standards, etc. That said, I’ve certainly run across many Engineers (with the ring type) that do plenty of unprofessional things. They just figure out how to do them passive aggressively or sidestep what would run afoul of the official standards. But it’s the same thing.
- epgui 4y ago
  That's pretty much in line with my observations as well. It's not to say that accredited engineers are automatically better, or that accredited engineering programmes are perfect, or anything like that. Like you pointed out, there's no shortage of examples/arguments to the contrary. (Personally, my background is medical, so it's a bit different than accredited engineering programmes, but I also am familiar with those having been involved in a bunch of senate-level evaluation of programmes, etc, at my school.) But I do think accredited programs have certain benefits, and that the software world should pay attention to what other engineering disciplines get right.

throwaway2037 4y ago

Your last paragraph is excellent. I never saw it expressed that way. Well said.

phkahler 4y ago
Yes, truly amazing! I think we found a real friend in that guy!

908B64B197 4y ago

> As a Frenchman, many Americans find my totally France compliant speech a bit rude. I call it exact. But indeed, it takes a little while to get used to it. I recall someone at a tech company here in the Bay with a French manager that thought his manager didn't like him, until he read his feedback during his first performance review. French Canadians sounds like Americans with accents.