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Personally, I think buying any Chinese product when an alternative exists has become unconscionable. China's current support of Russia is an obvious issue, as

Personally, I think buying any Chinese product when an alternative exists has become unconscionable. China's current support of Russia is an obvious issue, as well as their threats towards Taiwan and their destruction of democracy in Hong Kong. Problems with IP infringement abound, and in this case it's particularly disappointing as Prusa is committed to open source. I hope Prusa continue to innovate, but I also hope people reject Bambu Lab. Doing so is one of the few direct actions we can take against the Chinese principles that directly oppose Western values.

MPSimmons 4y ago
I'm totally unfamiliar with the company that makes the Bambu, but do they have ties to the CCP or is there evidence that buying this printer would further the Chinese government's efforts?
- bb88 4y ago
  Disclaimer: I have had my personal details stolen from by China before with the OPM hack (US security clearances). I'm pretty sure they stole my fingerprints. I guess that may make me biased... It's not that they have ties to the CCP. It's the fact the CCP can order Bambu to give up their data without a warrant showing criminal activity. https://thehill.com/opinion/cybersecurity/532583-for-chinese-firms-theft-of-your-data-is-now-a-legal-requirement/ https://thehill.com/opinion/cybersecurity/532583-for-chinese... By bambu labs own website, they have locations in China, which means those sites are governed by Chinese law. https://bambulab.com/en/about-us https://bambulab.com/en/about-us
  - gjsman-1000 4y ago
    Little known, but according to Harvard Business Review, all Chinese companies with over 50 employees must have a dedicated CCP representative within the company. Every company with over 100 employees must have a party cell, and the leader of that cell must report to the local municipality regularly. https://hbr.org/2014/03/why-china-cant-innovate https://hbr.org/2014/03/why-china-cant-innovate Bambu Lab... how big they are isn't clear. Their LinkedIn claims they are between 201 and 500 employees. If HBR is correct, they very likely have CCP cells within their organization.
- Symbiote 4y ago
  Taxes paid by Chinese businesses and residents further the goals of the Chinese government.
inconceivable 4y ago
good luck avoiding the components, materials, and packaging everyone uses that are made in china. including the stuff made in india, malaysia, thailand, japan, singapore, indonesia, germany, usa, canada, and mexico. i say if you want to fight for democracy, pick up a rifle and join the marines, or go work for lockheed or raytheon. our military could always use more smart people.
- audunw 4y ago
  That's ridiculous.. There's a huge difference between supporting a product fully developed, designed and marketed from China, with Chinese companies taking all of the margins -- versus a product with various sub-components with razor thin margins supplied from China. China is desperate to climb up from low-value, low-margin contract manufacturing to higher end work. Their rising wage levels and demographic shift demands it. The rest of the world needs to put its foot down and say "No, you can keep taking low end contracts if you want, but if you want to move up the chain you have to grow up and act like a mature industrialized country. If you're not going to let foreign companies operate and compete on fair terms in your country, don't expect us to let your companies compete freely in our countries." Manufacturing is already slowly moving out of China due to rising labor costs and automation. If we stop buying stuff fully owned, designed and marketed from China, the pressure will keep increasing for China to get its act together. I mean, otherwise we might as well giving up on designing and marketing anything in the west. China will have a crazy advantage if they get to play by completely different and unfair rules, ignoring our IP laws, getting subsidized shipping on everything (since they're a "developing" country), getting to ignore quality control because returns are hopeless, getting to flood Amazon with low-quality products with fake reviews, while working from the place where all this stuff is manufactured anyway.
  - inconceivable 4y ago
    maybe you should try to stop buying cheap crap in general instead of getting angry at shady internet marketers on the other side of the planet. you're not going to stop china's economic rise without military intervention. the world is a big place with lots of markets. join the military and be on the front lines of the coming cold war where you can do some real good. https://www.marines.com/become-a-marine/process-to-join.html https://www.marines.com/become-a-marine/process-to-join.html https://www.lockheedmartinjobs.com/ https://www.lockheedmartinjobs.com/ https://careers.rtx.com/global/en https://careers.rtx.com/global/en
serf 4y ago
You're still supporting China with a Prusa purchase. The power supplies are built by Delta Electronics, the bearings and rods are (usually) Chinese supplied, the fans flip between China and misc SE Asia suppliers (Noctua) , the steppers are from China (LDO)... the list probably goes on. You could make an FDM printer with exclusively American (or otherwise) parts, but the price tag is going to be astronomical.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- Symbiote 4y ago
  I generally don't look that far into a purchase, as it's often difficult to find the information. With Prusa, the majority of the profit is made in Czechia. The research, design, assembly and some of the manufacture is done there. I support China much less than with a purchase from a Chinese company. Note Delta Electronics is a Taiwanese company with manufacturing in several countries including China. Noctua is an Austrian-Taiwanese company with manufacturing in Taiwan and China. LDO is Chinese, but this makes my point — how do you know those are the steppers Prusa uses? It's not written on their site. I would like to see clear labelling on products showing their origin, perhaps including the origin of any component until the cost is <5% of the total, or something like that. Include the PSU, but don't bother about the capacitors or power cord.
  - gjsman-1000 4y ago
    > how do you know those are the steppers Prusa uses? It's not written on their site. It's an open secret that all stepper motors in all premium 3D Printer kits are LDO. Prusa, Voron, RatRig, it's all LDO. LDO also does white-label branding, so the motors say "Prusa Research" on them even though they are otherwise indistinguishable. This is not the first time Prusa does white-label branding - the "SuperPINDA" is actually developed and sold to anyone who wants it by Pepperl+Fuchs (a German company).
- jayyhu 4y ago
  While Prusas definitely contain Chinese parts, if your goal is to avoid buying Chinese then buying a product with a diversified supply chain is certainly preferable to buying a product that is 100% from China. Also Delta Electronics is a Taiwanese company[1] [1] https://www.deltaww.com/en-US/about/aboutProfile https://www.deltaww.com/en-US/about/aboutProfile

MPSimmons 4y ago

I'm totally unfamiliar with the company that makes the Bambu, but do they have ties to the CCP or is there evidence that buying this printer would further the Chinese government's efforts?

bb88 4y ago
Disclaimer: I have had my personal details stolen from by China before with the OPM hack (US security clearances). I'm pretty sure they stole my fingerprints. I guess that may make me biased... It's not that they have ties to the CCP. It's the fact the CCP can order Bambu to give up their data without a warrant showing criminal activity. https://thehill.com/opinion/cybersecurity/532583-for-chinese-firms-theft-of-your-data-is-now-a-legal-requirement/ https://thehill.com/opinion/cybersecurity/532583-for-chinese... By bambu labs own website, they have locations in China, which means those sites are governed by Chinese law. https://bambulab.com/en/about-us https://bambulab.com/en/about-us
- gjsman-1000 4y ago
  Little known, but according to Harvard Business Review, all Chinese companies with over 50 employees must have a dedicated CCP representative within the company. Every company with over 100 employees must have a party cell, and the leader of that cell must report to the local municipality regularly. https://hbr.org/2014/03/why-china-cant-innovate https://hbr.org/2014/03/why-china-cant-innovate Bambu Lab... how big they are isn't clear. Their LinkedIn claims they are between 201 and 500 employees. If HBR is correct, they very likely have CCP cells within their organization.
Symbiote 4y ago
Taxes paid by Chinese businesses and residents further the goals of the Chinese government.

inconceivable 4y ago

good luck avoiding the components, materials, and packaging everyone uses that are made in china. including the stuff made in india, malaysia, thailand, japan, singapore, indonesia, germany, usa, canada, and mexico. i say if you want to fight for democracy, pick up a rifle and join the marines, or go work for lockheed or raytheon. our military could always use more smart people.

audunw 4y ago
That's ridiculous.. There's a huge difference between supporting a product fully developed, designed and marketed from China, with Chinese companies taking all of the margins -- versus a product with various sub-components with razor thin margins supplied from China. China is desperate to climb up from low-value, low-margin contract manufacturing to higher end work. Their rising wage levels and demographic shift demands it. The rest of the world needs to put its foot down and say "No, you can keep taking low end contracts if you want, but if you want to move up the chain you have to grow up and act like a mature industrialized country. If you're not going to let foreign companies operate and compete on fair terms in your country, don't expect us to let your companies compete freely in our countries." Manufacturing is already slowly moving out of China due to rising labor costs and automation. If we stop buying stuff fully owned, designed and marketed from China, the pressure will keep increasing for China to get its act together. I mean, otherwise we might as well giving up on designing and marketing anything in the west. China will have a crazy advantage if they get to play by completely different and unfair rules, ignoring our IP laws, getting subsidized shipping on everything (since they're a "developing" country), getting to ignore quality control because returns are hopeless, getting to flood Amazon with low-quality products with fake reviews, while working from the place where all this stuff is manufactured anyway.
- inconceivable 4y ago
  maybe you should try to stop buying cheap crap in general instead of getting angry at shady internet marketers on the other side of the planet. you're not going to stop china's economic rise without military intervention. the world is a big place with lots of markets. join the military and be on the front lines of the coming cold war where you can do some real good. https://www.marines.com/become-a-marine/process-to-join.html https://www.marines.com/become-a-marine/process-to-join.html https://www.lockheedmartinjobs.com/ https://www.lockheedmartinjobs.com/ https://careers.rtx.com/global/en https://careers.rtx.com/global/en

serf 4y ago

You're still supporting China with a Prusa purchase. The power supplies are built by Delta Electronics, the bearings and rods are (usually) Chinese supplied, the fans flip between China and misc SE Asia suppliers (Noctua) , the steppers are from China (LDO)... the list probably goes on. You could make an FDM printer with exclusively American (or otherwise) parts, but the price tag is going to be astronomical.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
Symbiote 4y ago
I generally don't look that far into a purchase, as it's often difficult to find the information. With Prusa, the majority of the profit is made in Czechia. The research, design, assembly and some of the manufacture is done there. I support China much less than with a purchase from a Chinese company. Note Delta Electronics is a Taiwanese company with manufacturing in several countries including China. Noctua is an Austrian-Taiwanese company with manufacturing in Taiwan and China. LDO is Chinese, but this makes my point — how do you know those are the steppers Prusa uses? It's not written on their site. I would like to see clear labelling on products showing their origin, perhaps including the origin of any component until the cost is <5% of the total, or something like that. Include the PSU, but don't bother about the capacitors or power cord.
- gjsman-1000 4y ago
  > how do you know those are the steppers Prusa uses? It's not written on their site. It's an open secret that all stepper motors in all premium 3D Printer kits are LDO. Prusa, Voron, RatRig, it's all LDO. LDO also does white-label branding, so the motors say "Prusa Research" on them even though they are otherwise indistinguishable. This is not the first time Prusa does white-label branding - the "SuperPINDA" is actually developed and sold to anyone who wants it by Pepperl+Fuchs (a German company).
jayyhu 4y ago
While Prusas definitely contain Chinese parts, if your goal is to avoid buying Chinese then buying a product with a diversified supply chain is certainly preferable to buying a product that is 100% from China. Also Delta Electronics is a Taiwanese company[1] [1] https://www.deltaww.com/en-US/about/aboutProfile https://www.deltaww.com/en-US/about/aboutProfile