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Genocide? I know we've gotten into the habit of redefining words whenever it suits us, but at some point doesn't it muddy the waters if we just make shit up?

by yucky 4y ago

mindslight 4y ago
Oxford Languages via Google: the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group Dictionary.com: the deliberate and systematic extermination of a national, racial, political, or cultural group Merriam Webster: the deliberate and systematic destruction of a racial, political, or cultural group Would you care to find me a source with a definition that doesn't apply?
- celu 4y ago
  Isn't it more in the interest of conquering rather than exterminate and destroy? If Ukraine were to surrender, I don't think Russia would continue to kill them all.
  - mopsi 4y ago
    Genocide is a part of that. People capable of leading a country (top politicians, lawyers, academics, businessmen, military leaders, etc) must be murdered so that there is no-one to lead the opposition to Russian rule. After WW2, former leadership of countries occupied by the Soviet Union was methodically exterminated the same way. After people capable of leading a nation are murdered and prohibitions of cultural practices are placed on the remaining, they begin to lose their group identity (language, religion, etc) until they cease to exist as an independent entity. Many Native American tribes disappeared this way, for example. They weren't murdered to the last person. Instead, they were put into conditions that lead to their irreversible decline.
- yucky 4y ago
  So we committed genocide against the Iraqi's, right?
mopsi 4y ago
30 legal scholars of genocide have compiled a comprehensive report explaining how Russian actions match the legal definition of genocide: https://newlinesinstitute.org/wp-content/uploads/English-Report-1.pdf https://newlinesinstitute.org/wp-content/uploads/English-Rep...
- yucky 4y ago
  Their definition fits several genocides committed fairly recently by the US.
  - mindslight 4y ago
    Please, do make that argument! Despite being against the (2nd) US invasion of Iraq since before it happened, I've never personally felt the need to apply the label genocide (estimates of 300k violent deaths and 1M excess deaths notwithstanding). But I am very much willing to admit this may be a result of biased US propaganda that seeks to justify that war and downplay the atrocities, regardless of my not buying into the overarching narrative. But if you yourself find the definition of genocide appropriate to the second US invasion of Iraq, or any other US military action, then please make the arguments to apply it! I'm not playing some game of "which country's unprovoked war is worse", but rather condemning it all.
    - yucky 4y ago
      Illegally invading a nation, killing upwards of a million people and destroying their way of life in order to institute a top down US-centric view of how society should function - fits their definition perfectly. And not just in Iraq, but Afghanistan as well. And that's just in the last 20 years. I could also make a case in Syria and Libya as well but that would require first convincing you that our CIA/State Dept. were up to their usual tricks which I suspect would be a waste of our time. And let's not forget our role in this whole Ukrainian boondoggle going back to at least 2014 with funding & fomenting the coup/revolution that gave Putin his "justification" to annex Crimea. Then we sit back as moral arbiters and want the whole world to still pretend we are always the good guys.
dragonwriter 4y ago
> Genocide? > I know we’ve gotten into the habit of redefining words whenever it suits us, but at some point doesn’t it muddy the waters if we just make shit up? Yes, which is why people need to stop trying to excuse the actions of forces practicing what is exactly genocide as defined in international law by making shit up in the form of a more limited definition that is restricted only to mass direct extermination. From the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide: genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: (a) Killing members of the group; (b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; (c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; (d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; (e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.
- yucky 4y ago
  By this definition, did we commit genocide against the Iraqi's? Also, is Russia's invasion of Ukraine demonstrably worse or less justified than our invasion of Iraq?
  - dragonwriter 4y ago
    > By this definition, did we commit genocide against the Iraqi’s? I’m pretty sure I didn’t, I don’t know if you did. > Also, is Russia’s invasion of Ukraine demonstrably worse or less justified than our invasion of Iraq? I don’t really care, since I’ve argued that the decision-makers responsible for the latter should be arrested and tried for war crimes and the crime of aggression.

Genocide? I know we've gotten into the habit of redefining words whenever it suits us, but at some point doesn't it muddy the waters if we just make shit up?

by yucky 4y ago

Genocide? I know we've gotten into the habit of redefining words whenever it suits us, but at some point doesn't it muddy the waters if we just make shit up?

mindslight 4y ago

Oxford Languages via Google: the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group Dictionary.com: the deliberate and systematic extermination of a national, racial, political, or cultural group Merriam Webster: the deliberate and systematic destruction of a racial, political, or cultural group Would you care to find me a source with a definition that doesn't apply?

celu 4y ago
Isn't it more in the interest of conquering rather than exterminate and destroy? If Ukraine were to surrender, I don't think Russia would continue to kill them all.
- mopsi 4y ago
  Genocide is a part of that. People capable of leading a country (top politicians, lawyers, academics, businessmen, military leaders, etc) must be murdered so that there is no-one to lead the opposition to Russian rule. After WW2, former leadership of countries occupied by the Soviet Union was methodically exterminated the same way. After people capable of leading a nation are murdered and prohibitions of cultural practices are placed on the remaining, they begin to lose their group identity (language, religion, etc) until they cease to exist as an independent entity. Many Native American tribes disappeared this way, for example. They weren't murdered to the last person. Instead, they were put into conditions that lead to their irreversible decline.
yucky 4y ago
So we committed genocide against the Iraqi's, right?

mopsi 4y ago

30 legal scholars of genocide have compiled a comprehensive report explaining how Russian actions match the legal definition of genocide: https://newlinesinstitute.org/wp-content/uploads/English-Report-1.pdf https://newlinesinstitute.org/wp-content/uploads/English-Rep...

yucky 4y ago
Their definition fits several genocides committed fairly recently by the US.
- mindslight 4y ago
  Please, do make that argument! Despite being against the (2nd) US invasion of Iraq since before it happened, I've never personally felt the need to apply the label genocide (estimates of 300k violent deaths and 1M excess deaths notwithstanding). But I am very much willing to admit this may be a result of biased US propaganda that seeks to justify that war and downplay the atrocities, regardless of my not buying into the overarching narrative. But if you yourself find the definition of genocide appropriate to the second US invasion of Iraq, or any other US military action, then please make the arguments to apply it! I'm not playing some game of "which country's unprovoked war is worse", but rather condemning it all.
  - yucky 4y ago
    Illegally invading a nation, killing upwards of a million people and destroying their way of life in order to institute a top down US-centric view of how society should function - fits their definition perfectly. And not just in Iraq, but Afghanistan as well. And that's just in the last 20 years. I could also make a case in Syria and Libya as well but that would require first convincing you that our CIA/State Dept. were up to their usual tricks which I suspect would be a waste of our time. And let's not forget our role in this whole Ukrainian boondoggle going back to at least 2014 with funding & fomenting the coup/revolution that gave Putin his "justification" to annex Crimea. Then we sit back as moral arbiters and want the whole world to still pretend we are always the good guys.

dragonwriter 4y ago

> Genocide? > I know we’ve gotten into the habit of redefining words whenever it suits us, but at some point doesn’t it muddy the waters if we just make shit up? Yes, which is why people need to stop trying to excuse the actions of forces practicing what is exactly genocide as defined in international law by making shit up in the form of a more limited definition that is restricted only to mass direct extermination. From the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide: genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: (a) Killing members of the group; (b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; (c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; (d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; (e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

yucky 4y ago
By this definition, did we commit genocide against the Iraqi's? Also, is Russia's invasion of Ukraine demonstrably worse or less justified than our invasion of Iraq?
- dragonwriter 4y ago
  > By this definition, did we commit genocide against the Iraqi’s? I’m pretty sure I didn’t, I don’t know if you did. > Also, is Russia’s invasion of Ukraine demonstrably worse or less justified than our invasion of Iraq? I don’t really care, since I’ve argued that the decision-makers responsible for the latter should be arrested and tried for war crimes and the crime of aggression.