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Not denying that the process happens, and maybe it's irreconcilable. But I'll attempt to describe my position in more general terms. The difference between "li

Not denying that the process happens, and maybe it's irreconcilable. But I'll attempt to describe my position in more general terms. The difference between "literal" and "figurative"/"metaphorical" is whether a term is being used as a first-order label for a thing in itself, or as a reference to another concept. That is, a figurative use of a term applies meaning by drawing on a distinct source of meaning. Words (or idiomatic phrases) can become literal when their usage becomes so strongly identified with what they label that their meaning is no longer determined by reference. "Turn on" no longer involves turning, for example. I agree that "definition" has become literal, because we no longer refer to the concept of boundaries each time we encounter the term. So too with "cradle": we imagine a particular object that isn't a basket, in itself. I do not believe this is the case when someone calls the Yellow River the cradle of Chinese civilization. I believe that people hearing that term primarily understand "cradle" by reference to the baby-related object, rather than because the word has meaning in itself relating to the start of civilization. As evidence of this, I think attaching "of Chinese civilization" is doing meaningful work, and that most people would be thrown off by the abstract phrase "cradles around the world" or even by the more specific phrase "the Yellow River, China's cradle." They may still understand the speaker's meaning, but they would do so by connecting the metaphorical dots, not because "cradle" has become a literalism.

RC_ITR 4y ago
>a first-order label for a thing in itself Let's bring this back to typing because I think it really helps. Typos from Greek refers to a physical mark or impression made by a stamp (not inherently letters, any physical impression). We then used that etymology to come up with 'type' to represent the blocks that deposited ink onto paper . Kind of a stretch, but I would still consider that a first order label in your framework. Great we are aligned. But wait, I'm typing this comment and there's no physical impressions being made on paper. Am I not literally typing? >we no longer refer to the concept of boundaries each time we encounter the term. So too with "cradle": we imagine a particular object that isn't a basket, in itself. Sure, I'm not imagining a printing press, but whether or not I know it, I am making a metaphor to it. So if we stopped using the term 'cradle' to refer to a basket (therefore breaking the metaphor), then cradle becomes literal? Seems like a fragile/not useful distinction to me.
- GavinMcG 4y ago
  I think "whether or not [you] know it" is key. The definitions I'm advancing have to do with the subjective mental work you do (or don't do). I agree that "typing" is literal because we do not loop in the concept of physical type making an impression when we interpret or describe the action of fingers on a keyboard. The term has flown the nest, so to speak. What about my last paragraph? Do you deny that there's a two-step process going on, or do you actually see the phrase "Chinese cradle" and interpret it to mean "birthplace of civilization" rather than first assuming it means a baby-related object produced in China? Of course it's weak. This is all pedantry. But then again, "literal" now means both "literal" and "not literal" so maybe all linguistic distinctions are fragile. Less useful once they're destroyed, though—it would be nice if we had a word that meant "literal" without also meaning "not literal."
  - RC_ITR 4y ago
    >What about my last paragraph? Do you deny that there's a two-step process going on, or do you actually see the phrase "Chinese cradle" and interpret it to mean "birthplace of civilization" rather than first assuming it means a baby-related object produced in China? I didn't want to get off topic, but I speculate the most common usage of 'cradle' in American English is 'Cradle to Grave.' I didn't bring it up, since it torpedoes your argument (Cradle is used to mean infancy in this case, not a physical item), but it feels too nuanced to be a general argument. >it would be nice if we had a word that meant "literal" without also meaning "not literal." Actually, I think we do.
    - GavinMcG 4y ago
      Quite the opposite: both cradles and graves are spots to lay human bodies, and both are being used metaphorically for times in one's life.
tshaddox 4y ago
> I do not believe this is the case when someone calls the Yellow River the cradle of Chinese civilization. I believe that people hearing that term primarily understand "cradle" by reference to the baby-related object, rather than because the word has meaning in itself relating to the start of civilization. I think I just factually disagree with you here. I think it would be very rare for a fluent English speaker to hear “cradle of civilization” and need to actually do the work of calling up the concept of a baby bed and make educated guesses about what metaphorical similarities the speaker is trying to evoke. In fact, in American English I think it’s pretty rare to use “cradle” in informal speech to refer to a baby bed. “Crib” or even “bassinet” or “baby bed” are much more common. “Cradle” is in the lyrics of a well-known lullaby, but to use it in casual speech would be somewhat conspicuous. It’s much more common as a verb, like “cradle the baby in your arms,” which I suspect you would also describe as a metaphorical usage (and I would disagree).
- GavinMcG 4y ago
  No, we agree about the phrase. But that's the whole ballgame: if "cradle" independently referred to the place, there would be no need to say "of civilization." It's an idiomatic use that is expressly non-literal. We also agree that "cradle" as a verb is not metaphorical. Whether "cradle" is more or less common than "crib" (say) doesn't indicate one way or another whether its usage in other contexts is as a first- or second-order signifier.

RC_ITR 4y ago

>a first-order label for a thing in itself Let's bring this back to typing because I think it really helps. Typos from Greek refers to a physical mark or impression made by a stamp (not inherently letters, any physical impression). We then used that etymology to come up with 'type' to represent the blocks that deposited ink onto paper . Kind of a stretch, but I would still consider that a first order label in your framework. Great we are aligned. But wait, I'm typing this comment and there's no physical impressions being made on paper. Am I not literally typing? >we no longer refer to the concept of boundaries each time we encounter the term. So too with "cradle": we imagine a particular object that isn't a basket, in itself. Sure, I'm not imagining a printing press, but whether or not I know it, I am making a metaphor to it. So if we stopped using the term 'cradle' to refer to a basket (therefore breaking the metaphor), then cradle becomes literal? Seems like a fragile/not useful distinction to me.

GavinMcG 4y ago
I think "whether or not [you] know it" is key. The definitions I'm advancing have to do with the subjective mental work you do (or don't do). I agree that "typing" is literal because we do not loop in the concept of physical type making an impression when we interpret or describe the action of fingers on a keyboard. The term has flown the nest, so to speak. What about my last paragraph? Do you deny that there's a two-step process going on, or do you actually see the phrase "Chinese cradle" and interpret it to mean "birthplace of civilization" rather than first assuming it means a baby-related object produced in China? Of course it's weak. This is all pedantry. But then again, "literal" now means both "literal" and "not literal" so maybe all linguistic distinctions are fragile. Less useful once they're destroyed, though—it would be nice if we had a word that meant "literal" without also meaning "not literal."
- RC_ITR 4y ago
  >What about my last paragraph? Do you deny that there's a two-step process going on, or do you actually see the phrase "Chinese cradle" and interpret it to mean "birthplace of civilization" rather than first assuming it means a baby-related object produced in China? I didn't want to get off topic, but I speculate the most common usage of 'cradle' in American English is 'Cradle to Grave.' I didn't bring it up, since it torpedoes your argument (Cradle is used to mean infancy in this case, not a physical item), but it feels too nuanced to be a general argument. >it would be nice if we had a word that meant "literal" without also meaning "not literal." Actually, I think we do.
  - GavinMcG 4y ago
    Quite the opposite: both cradles and graves are spots to lay human bodies, and both are being used metaphorically for times in one's life.

tshaddox 4y ago

> I do not believe this is the case when someone calls the Yellow River the cradle of Chinese civilization. I believe that people hearing that term primarily understand "cradle" by reference to the baby-related object, rather than because the word has meaning in itself relating to the start of civilization. I think I just factually disagree with you here. I think it would be very rare for a fluent English speaker to hear “cradle of civilization” and need to actually do the work of calling up the concept of a baby bed and make educated guesses about what metaphorical similarities the speaker is trying to evoke. In fact, in American English I think it’s pretty rare to use “cradle” in informal speech to refer to a baby bed. “Crib” or even “bassinet” or “baby bed” are much more common. “Cradle” is in the lyrics of a well-known lullaby, but to use it in casual speech would be somewhat conspicuous. It’s much more common as a verb, like “cradle the baby in your arms,” which I suspect you would also describe as a metaphorical usage (and I would disagree).

GavinMcG 4y ago
No, we agree about the phrase. But that's the whole ballgame: if "cradle" independently referred to the place, there would be no need to say "of civilization." It's an idiomatic use that is expressly non-literal. We also agree that "cradle" as a verb is not metaphorical. Whether "cradle" is more or less common than "crib" (say) doesn't indicate one way or another whether its usage in other contexts is as a first- or second-order signifier.