4 ms·

Linking a podcast isn't very good sourcing. I'm very intrigued to hear how the cuddling that's happening college campuses isn't happening, since anyone can see

Linking a podcast isn't very good sourcing. I'm very intrigued to hear how the cuddling that's happening college campuses isn't happening, since anyone can see it in real time.

PuppyTailWags 4y ago
Here is a list of the referred critiques in the show notes: The Miseducation of Free Speech (https://www.virginialawreview.org/articles/miseducation-free-speech/ https://www.virginialawreview.org/articles/miseducation-free...) College and the “Culture War”: Assessing Higher Education’s Influence on Moral Attitudes (https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/00031224211041094 https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/00031224211041...) The Myth of the Campus Coddle Crisis (https://academeblog.org/2018/12/28/the-myth-of-the-campus-coddle-crisis-the-coddling-of-the-american-mind/ https://academeblog.org/2018/12/28/the-myth-of-the-campus-co...) What ‘Safe Spaces’ Really Look Like on College Campuses (https://www.chronicle.com/article/what-safe-spaces-really-look-like-on-college-campuses/?bc_nonce=peduocnzcslb08jxmt1dlb&cid=reg_wall_signup https://www.chronicle.com/article/what-safe-spaces-really-lo...) Are College Campuses Really in the Thrall of Leftist Censors? (https://slate.com/human-interest/2015/03/hypersensitive-campus-progressives-judith-shulevitz-is-half-right-but-takes-her-criticisms-too-far.html https://slate.com/human-interest/2015/03/hypersensitive-camp...) Speaking Freely: What Students Think about Expression at American Colleges (https://www.thefire.org/research-learn/student-attitudes-free-speech-survey https://www.thefire.org/research-learn/student-attitudes-fre...) ‘Not all cultures are created equal’ says Penn Law professor in op-ed (https://www.thedp.com/article/2017/08/amy-wax-penn-law-cultural-values https://www.thedp.com/article/2017/08/amy-wax-penn-law-cultu...) How Right Wing Media Has Tried to Stifle Student Speech at Evergreen State College (https://psmag.com/education/the-real-free-speech-story-at-evergreen-college https://psmag.com/education/the-real-free-speech-story-at-ev...) I'm a liberal professor, and my liberal students terrify me (https://www.vox.com/2015/6/3/8706323/college-professor-afraid https://www.vox.com/2015/6/3/8706323/college-professor-afrai...) In College and Hiding From Scary Ideas (https://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/22/opinion/sunday/judith-shulevitz-hiding-from-scary-ideas.html https://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/22/opinion/sunday/judith-shu...)
- scythe 4y ago
  It's not much easier to engage with ten articles of varying quality and varying levels of disagreement than with a podcast. >The Miseducation of Free Speech Does not focus on Haidt. >College and the “Culture War”: Assessing Higher Education’s Influence on Moral Attitudes Does not focus on Haidt. >The Myth of the Campus Coddle Crisis "This is not one of those laudatory reviews. Although I agree with many things they write, and share their general outlook in opposition to safetyism (protecting people from any possible harms, including offensive ideas) and in favor of free speech, I want to focus on my disagreements because dissent is more interesting and more important." Dissents on specific political implications while agreeing with the wider point. >What 'Safe Spaces' really look like on college campuses Does not mention Haidt at all; focuses mostly on "safe spaces" in the narrow sense of support groups. >Are College Campuses Really in the Thrall of Leftist Censors? Tabloid piece; focuses primarily on political bias and not overall censorship; does not mention Haidt. >Speaking Freely: What Students Think about Expression at American Colleges From FIRE, whose leadership worked with Haidt on the book; presumably not that critical of Haidt. Skipped. >Not all cultures are created equal’ says Penn Law professor in op-ed Focuses on Amy Waxman, an infamously racist professor whom even "anti-woke" firebrand Norman Finkelstein has denounced. A bit of a strawman. >Right Wing Media Has Tried to Stifle Student Speech at Evergreen State College Does not focus on Haidt; essentially agrees by highlighting censorship on college campuses, but disputes whether it is primarily leftist. >I'm a liberal professor, and my liberal students terrify me Skipped. You know why. >In College and Hiding from Scary Ideas Paywall; title indicates that it agrees with Haidt. Nowhere in this Gish gallop of links is there a serious critique of the analysis in The Coddling of the American Mind, except in the third link, where the author is explicitly saying he agrees with Haidt on most points. Using this to discredit Haidt as he discusses a completely different subject is not a very helpful contribution to the overall discussion.
  - PuppyTailWags 4y ago
    The Amy Waxman point was explicitly used by The Coddling Of The American Mind to prove its point, while the book completely ignored the context that Amy Waxman was racist, which is why it's referenced here. It's clear you haven't even read the book you're trying to defend here, so why are you doing this? Edited to add: A gish-gallop? I'm just linking a set of references that the podcast uses because of the critique that podcasts are apparently bad to listen to? Do you want a transcript or something? I'm just wanting to let folks have some context to this article dude, that isn't coming from a source without its own biases and to keep that in mind when reading. Why are you being weird about this, man?
bigbillheck 4y ago
> I'm very intrigued to hear how the cuddling that's happening college campuses isn't happening, since anyone can see it in real time They were saying the same things when I was in college 30 years ago.
- x3n0ph3n3 4y ago
  It can be argued that it's been getting steadily worse over that entire period of time.
  - educaysean 4y ago
    I agree. It's a natural condition of the human world and not directly attributable to any one specific cause. Life goes on.
FredPret 4y ago
Cuddling on campus sounds like a good idea and has been par for the course for generations. But coddling is a problem
- eastof 4y ago
  I know you're jokingly responding to GP, but I seriously wonder if there's a deeper point here. I feel like casual hookups are replacing cuddling and could be part of the issue but who knows.
ModernMech 4y ago
Interesting reading this sentiment, after first reading the recent thread about Stanford's "war" on students. The prevailing attitude there seemed to be that Stanford was in fact antagonizing their students by banning drinking, when in fact they should be providing an environment that is insulates students from real-world consequences to allow for experimentation. Now I guess this opinion is that doing so would be coddling, and that is a problem in itself. Seems like a complex issue where people can have a reasonable difference of opinion. So maybe it's not that people are denying the coddling, but they just think it's not a problem.

Linking a podcast isn't very good sourcing. I'm very intrigued to hear how the cuddling that's happening college campuses isn't happening, since anyone can see it in real time.

PuppyTailWags 4y ago

Here is a list of the referred critiques in the show notes: The Miseducation of Free Speech (https://www.virginialawreview.org/articles/miseducation-free-speech/ https://www.virginialawreview.org/articles/miseducation-free...) College and the “Culture War”: Assessing Higher Education’s Influence on Moral Attitudes (https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/00031224211041094 https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/00031224211041...) The Myth of the Campus Coddle Crisis (https://academeblog.org/2018/12/28/the-myth-of-the-campus-coddle-crisis-the-coddling-of-the-american-mind/ https://academeblog.org/2018/12/28/the-myth-of-the-campus-co...) What ‘Safe Spaces’ Really Look Like on College Campuses (https://www.chronicle.com/article/what-safe-spaces-really-look-like-on-college-campuses/?bc_nonce=peduocnzcslb08jxmt1dlb&cid=reg_wall_signup https://www.chronicle.com/article/what-safe-spaces-really-lo...) Are College Campuses Really in the Thrall of Leftist Censors? (https://slate.com/human-interest/2015/03/hypersensitive-campus-progressives-judith-shulevitz-is-half-right-but-takes-her-criticisms-too-far.html https://slate.com/human-interest/2015/03/hypersensitive-camp...) Speaking Freely: What Students Think about Expression at American Colleges (https://www.thefire.org/research-learn/student-attitudes-free-speech-survey https://www.thefire.org/research-learn/student-attitudes-fre...) ‘Not all cultures are created equal’ says Penn Law professor in op-ed (https://www.thedp.com/article/2017/08/amy-wax-penn-law-cultural-values https://www.thedp.com/article/2017/08/amy-wax-penn-law-cultu...) How Right Wing Media Has Tried to Stifle Student Speech at Evergreen State College (https://psmag.com/education/the-real-free-speech-story-at-evergreen-college https://psmag.com/education/the-real-free-speech-story-at-ev...) I'm a liberal professor, and my liberal students terrify me (https://www.vox.com/2015/6/3/8706323/college-professor-afraid https://www.vox.com/2015/6/3/8706323/college-professor-afrai...) In College and Hiding From Scary Ideas (https://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/22/opinion/sunday/judith-shulevitz-hiding-from-scary-ideas.html https://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/22/opinion/sunday/judith-shu...)

scythe 4y ago
It's not much easier to engage with ten articles of varying quality and varying levels of disagreement than with a podcast. >The Miseducation of Free Speech Does not focus on Haidt. >College and the “Culture War”: Assessing Higher Education’s Influence on Moral Attitudes Does not focus on Haidt. >The Myth of the Campus Coddle Crisis "This is not one of those laudatory reviews. Although I agree with many things they write, and share their general outlook in opposition to safetyism (protecting people from any possible harms, including offensive ideas) and in favor of free speech, I want to focus on my disagreements because dissent is more interesting and more important." Dissents on specific political implications while agreeing with the wider point. >What 'Safe Spaces' really look like on college campuses Does not mention Haidt at all; focuses mostly on "safe spaces" in the narrow sense of support groups. >Are College Campuses Really in the Thrall of Leftist Censors? Tabloid piece; focuses primarily on political bias and not overall censorship; does not mention Haidt. >Speaking Freely: What Students Think about Expression at American Colleges From FIRE, whose leadership worked with Haidt on the book; presumably not that critical of Haidt. Skipped. >Not all cultures are created equal’ says Penn Law professor in op-ed Focuses on Amy Waxman, an infamously racist professor whom even "anti-woke" firebrand Norman Finkelstein has denounced. A bit of a strawman. >Right Wing Media Has Tried to Stifle Student Speech at Evergreen State College Does not focus on Haidt; essentially agrees by highlighting censorship on college campuses, but disputes whether it is primarily leftist. >I'm a liberal professor, and my liberal students terrify me Skipped. You know why. >In College and Hiding from Scary Ideas Paywall; title indicates that it agrees with Haidt. Nowhere in this Gish gallop of links is there a serious critique of the analysis in The Coddling of the American Mind, except in the third link, where the author is explicitly saying he agrees with Haidt on most points. Using this to discredit Haidt as he discusses a completely different subject is not a very helpful contribution to the overall discussion.
- PuppyTailWags 4y ago
  The Amy Waxman point was explicitly used by The Coddling Of The American Mind to prove its point, while the book completely ignored the context that Amy Waxman was racist, which is why it's referenced here. It's clear you haven't even read the book you're trying to defend here, so why are you doing this? Edited to add: A gish-gallop? I'm just linking a set of references that the podcast uses because of the critique that podcasts are apparently bad to listen to? Do you want a transcript or something? I'm just wanting to let folks have some context to this article dude, that isn't coming from a source without its own biases and to keep that in mind when reading. Why are you being weird about this, man?

bigbillheck 4y ago

> I'm very intrigued to hear how the cuddling that's happening college campuses isn't happening, since anyone can see it in real time They were saying the same things when I was in college 30 years ago.

x3n0ph3n3 4y ago
It can be argued that it's been getting steadily worse over that entire period of time.
- educaysean 4y ago
  I agree. It's a natural condition of the human world and not directly attributable to any one specific cause. Life goes on.

FredPret 4y ago

Cuddling on campus sounds like a good idea and has been par for the course for generations. But coddling is a problem

eastof 4y ago
I know you're jokingly responding to GP, but I seriously wonder if there's a deeper point here. I feel like casual hookups are replacing cuddling and could be part of the issue but who knows.

ModernMech 4y ago

Interesting reading this sentiment, after first reading the recent thread about Stanford's "war" on students. The prevailing attitude there seemed to be that Stanford was in fact antagonizing their students by banning drinking, when in fact they should be providing an environment that is insulates students from real-world consequences to allow for experimentation. Now I guess this opinion is that doing so would be coddling, and that is a problem in itself. Seems like a complex issue where people can have a reasonable difference of opinion. So maybe it's not that people are denying the coddling, but they just think it's not a problem.