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Note that this isn't an unbiased source. This is working with Jon, the co-writer of The Coddling Of The American Mind, which uhhh is not without its critics for

Note that this isn't an unbiased source. This is working with Jon, the co-writer of The Coddling Of The American Mind, which uhhh is not without its critics for inaccuracies and stretching of truth. Check it out: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-coddling-of-the-american-mind/id1651876897 https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-coddling-of-the-am...

censor_me 4y ago
Linking a podcast isn't very good sourcing. I'm very intrigued to hear how the cuddling that's happening college campuses isn't happening, since anyone can see it in real time.
- PuppyTailWags 4y ago
  Here is a list of the referred critiques in the show notes: The Miseducation of Free Speech (https://www.virginialawreview.org/articles/miseducation-free-speech/ https://www.virginialawreview.org/articles/miseducation-free...) College and the “Culture War”: Assessing Higher Education’s Influence on Moral Attitudes (https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/00031224211041094 https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/00031224211041...) The Myth of the Campus Coddle Crisis (https://academeblog.org/2018/12/28/the-myth-of-the-campus-coddle-crisis-the-coddling-of-the-american-mind/ https://academeblog.org/2018/12/28/the-myth-of-the-campus-co...) What ‘Safe Spaces’ Really Look Like on College Campuses (https://www.chronicle.com/article/what-safe-spaces-really-look-like-on-college-campuses/?bc_nonce=peduocnzcslb08jxmt1dlb&cid=reg_wall_signup https://www.chronicle.com/article/what-safe-spaces-really-lo...) Are College Campuses Really in the Thrall of Leftist Censors? (https://slate.com/human-interest/2015/03/hypersensitive-campus-progressives-judith-shulevitz-is-half-right-but-takes-her-criticisms-too-far.html https://slate.com/human-interest/2015/03/hypersensitive-camp...) Speaking Freely: What Students Think about Expression at American Colleges (https://www.thefire.org/research-learn/student-attitudes-free-speech-survey https://www.thefire.org/research-learn/student-attitudes-fre...) ‘Not all cultures are created equal’ says Penn Law professor in op-ed (https://www.thedp.com/article/2017/08/amy-wax-penn-law-cultural-values https://www.thedp.com/article/2017/08/amy-wax-penn-law-cultu...) How Right Wing Media Has Tried to Stifle Student Speech at Evergreen State College (https://psmag.com/education/the-real-free-speech-story-at-evergreen-college https://psmag.com/education/the-real-free-speech-story-at-ev...) I'm a liberal professor, and my liberal students terrify me (https://www.vox.com/2015/6/3/8706323/college-professor-afraid https://www.vox.com/2015/6/3/8706323/college-professor-afrai...) In College and Hiding From Scary Ideas (https://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/22/opinion/sunday/judith-shulevitz-hiding-from-scary-ideas.html https://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/22/opinion/sunday/judith-shu...)
  - scythe 4y ago
    It's not much easier to engage with ten articles of varying quality and varying levels of disagreement than with a podcast. >The Miseducation of Free Speech Does not focus on Haidt. >College and the “Culture War”: Assessing Higher Education’s Influence on Moral Attitudes Does not focus on Haidt. >The Myth of the Campus Coddle Crisis "This is not one of those laudatory reviews. Although I agree with many things they write, and share their general outlook in opposition to safetyism (protecting people from any possible harms, including offensive ideas) and in favor of free speech, I want to focus on my disagreements because dissent is more interesting and more important." Dissents on specific political implications while agreeing with the wider point. >What 'Safe Spaces' really look like on college campuses Does not mention Haidt at all; focuses mostly on "safe spaces" in the narrow sense of support groups. >Are College Campuses Really in the Thrall of Leftist Censors? Tabloid piece; focuses primarily on political bias and not overall censorship; does not mention Haidt. >Speaking Freely: What Students Think about Expression at American Colleges From FIRE, whose leadership worked with Haidt on the book; presumably not that critical of Haidt. Skipped. >Not all cultures are created equal’ says Penn Law professor in op-ed Focuses on Amy Waxman, an infamously racist professor whom even "anti-woke" firebrand Norman Finkelstein has denounced. A bit of a strawman. >Right Wing Media Has Tried to Stifle Student Speech at Evergreen State College Does not focus on Haidt; essentially agrees by highlighting censorship on college campuses, but disputes whether it is primarily leftist. >I'm a liberal professor, and my liberal students terrify me Skipped. You know why. >In College and Hiding from Scary Ideas Paywall; title indicates that it agrees with Haidt. Nowhere in this Gish gallop of links is there a serious critique of the analysis in The Coddling of the American Mind, except in the third link, where the author is explicitly saying he agrees with Haidt on most points. Using this to discredit Haidt as he discusses a completely different subject is not a very helpful contribution to the overall discussion.
    - PuppyTailWags 4y ago
      The Amy Waxman point was explicitly used by The Coddling Of The American Mind to prove its point, while the book completely ignored the context that Amy Waxman was racist, which is why it's referenced here. It's clear you haven't even read the book you're trying to defend here, so why are you doing this? Edited to add: A gish-gallop? I'm just linking a set of references that the podcast uses because of the critique that podcasts are apparently bad to listen to? Do you want a transcript or something? I'm just wanting to let folks have some context to this article dude, that isn't coming from a source without its own biases and to keep that in mind when reading. Why are you being weird about this, man?
- bigbillheck 4y ago
  > I'm very intrigued to hear how the cuddling that's happening college campuses isn't happening, since anyone can see it in real time They were saying the same things when I was in college 30 years ago.
  - x3n0ph3n3 4y ago
    It can be argued that it's been getting steadily worse over that entire period of time.
    - educaysean 4y ago
      I agree. It's a natural condition of the human world and not directly attributable to any one specific cause. Life goes on.
- FredPret 4y ago
  Cuddling on campus sounds like a good idea and has been par for the course for generations. But coddling is a problem
  - eastof 4y ago
    I know you're jokingly responding to GP, but I seriously wonder if there's a deeper point here. I feel like casual hookups are replacing cuddling and could be part of the issue but who knows.
- ModernMech 4y ago
  Interesting reading this sentiment, after first reading the recent thread about Stanford's "war" on students. The prevailing attitude there seemed to be that Stanford was in fact antagonizing their students by banning drinking, when in fact they should be providing an environment that is insulates students from real-world consequences to allow for experimentation. Now I guess this opinion is that doing so would be coddling, and that is a problem in itself. Seems like a complex issue where people can have a reasonable difference of opinion. So maybe it's not that people are denying the coddling, but they just think it's not a problem.
ChickenNugger 4y ago
This is just an ad hominem. Address the content/message, not the speaker.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- dang 4y ago
  I agree with you about ad hominems but unfortunately your account has been using HN primarily for political/ideological battle, and also is arguably breaking the rule against trollish usernames here (https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comment&storyText=false&prefix=true&page=0&query=by:dang%20trollish%20username https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comme...). I've therefore banned it. If you don't want to be banned, you're welcome to email hn@ycombinator.com and give us reason to believe that you'll follow the rules in the future - they're here: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html. If you want to do that, we'll happily rename your account to something less trollish. (If you didn't intend your username to be trollish, I apologize, but I'm seeing signs that other people are taking it that way.)
  - luckylion 4y ago
    This is pretty lame, given that there's a good amount of users who are basically only commenting to say "capitalism bad, mhkay", yet for some reason that's not "primarily for political/ideological battle". Applying rules evenly makes the rules seem better.
    - dang 4y ago
      We've been applying the rules evenly for years, or at least have put in years' worth of effort to do so. The problem is that no matter how evenly one applies the rules, people with strong ideological passions still feel that we are biased against their side and secretly favor the other side. I think this is because everyone is more likely to notice and place greater weight on the cases that they happen to dislike. https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=by%3Adang%20notice%20dislike&sort=byDate&type=story&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que... https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26148870 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26148870 If you're aware of accounts using HN primarily for ideological battle who we haven't asked to stop, the likeliest explanation is that we haven't seen them. We don't come close to seeing everything that gets posted here. You can help by flagging such posts or, in egregious cases, emailing us at hn@ycombinator.com. https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&query=likeliest%20explanation%20by%3Adang&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu...
xupybd 4y ago
It's fair to say that this falls under the current "culture war". Any criticism may or may not be politically motivated. Any support may or may not be politically motivated. The results of this data gathering exercise is alarming regardless.
detuned 4y ago
He's also known for hinging a lot of what he says on the concept of rapid onset gender dysphoria (the idea that kids are spontaneously turning trans with no previous indicators due to a "social contagion"). The original study for it is a survey of posts from parents who don't want their kids to be trans. It shouldn't surprise anyone that those parents weren't in the best position to catch any hints when their kids might have caught on to the idea that their parents might not like them being trans.
- naasking 4y ago
  You are way overstating this. Haidt might have been one of the early ones raising alarm bells, but it's well established now that the cohort of people declaring themselves to be trans has shifted dramatically to young girls only very recently [1]. [1] https://www.bmj.com/content/380/bmj.p382 https://www.bmj.com/content/380/bmj.p382
  - PuppyTailWags 4y ago
    Your article doesn't seem to be quite authoritative: It shows there's actually a lot of debate about this subject. There's even a responses section that shows there's some significant issues with the article and claiming it's not neutral, leaving out significant statistics like a less than 1% regret rate of trans affirming procedures (less than a knee surgery). I think it's still up in the air, frankly.
    - naasking 4y ago
      What is authoritative is the evidence. The cohort WPATH was familiar with before 2010 and for which we have considerable data was older male-to-female transitioners. This cohort has changed significantly per the article, which is why some people are raising concerns about the lack of quality safety data for minors. Furthermore, only the US has really pushed gender affirming care for minors to this degree. Every other country has backed away from it due to low quality evidence. You know what else those countries have that the US doesn't? Universal healthcare that creates wildly different healthcare priorities. Consider that when when evaluating neutrality. > leaving out significant statistics like a less than 1% regret rate of trans affirming procedures (less than a knee surgery) The article and the responses make clear that transitioners are not followed consistently, so this evaluation is based on very spotty data. The fact is we don't know how common regret is. Even the responses that are pro-gender affirming care acknowledge that the data supporting long-term quality of life improvements is poor.

censor_me 4y ago

Linking a podcast isn't very good sourcing. I'm very intrigued to hear how the cuddling that's happening college campuses isn't happening, since anyone can see it in real time.

PuppyTailWags 4y ago
Here is a list of the referred critiques in the show notes: The Miseducation of Free Speech (https://www.virginialawreview.org/articles/miseducation-free-speech/ https://www.virginialawreview.org/articles/miseducation-free...) College and the “Culture War”: Assessing Higher Education’s Influence on Moral Attitudes (https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/00031224211041094 https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/00031224211041...) The Myth of the Campus Coddle Crisis (https://academeblog.org/2018/12/28/the-myth-of-the-campus-coddle-crisis-the-coddling-of-the-american-mind/ https://academeblog.org/2018/12/28/the-myth-of-the-campus-co...) What ‘Safe Spaces’ Really Look Like on College Campuses (https://www.chronicle.com/article/what-safe-spaces-really-look-like-on-college-campuses/?bc_nonce=peduocnzcslb08jxmt1dlb&cid=reg_wall_signup https://www.chronicle.com/article/what-safe-spaces-really-lo...) Are College Campuses Really in the Thrall of Leftist Censors? (https://slate.com/human-interest/2015/03/hypersensitive-campus-progressives-judith-shulevitz-is-half-right-but-takes-her-criticisms-too-far.html https://slate.com/human-interest/2015/03/hypersensitive-camp...) Speaking Freely: What Students Think about Expression at American Colleges (https://www.thefire.org/research-learn/student-attitudes-free-speech-survey https://www.thefire.org/research-learn/student-attitudes-fre...) ‘Not all cultures are created equal’ says Penn Law professor in op-ed (https://www.thedp.com/article/2017/08/amy-wax-penn-law-cultural-values https://www.thedp.com/article/2017/08/amy-wax-penn-law-cultu...) How Right Wing Media Has Tried to Stifle Student Speech at Evergreen State College (https://psmag.com/education/the-real-free-speech-story-at-evergreen-college https://psmag.com/education/the-real-free-speech-story-at-ev...) I'm a liberal professor, and my liberal students terrify me (https://www.vox.com/2015/6/3/8706323/college-professor-afraid https://www.vox.com/2015/6/3/8706323/college-professor-afrai...) In College and Hiding From Scary Ideas (https://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/22/opinion/sunday/judith-shulevitz-hiding-from-scary-ideas.html https://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/22/opinion/sunday/judith-shu...)
- scythe 4y ago
  It's not much easier to engage with ten articles of varying quality and varying levels of disagreement than with a podcast. >The Miseducation of Free Speech Does not focus on Haidt. >College and the “Culture War”: Assessing Higher Education’s Influence on Moral Attitudes Does not focus on Haidt. >The Myth of the Campus Coddle Crisis "This is not one of those laudatory reviews. Although I agree with many things they write, and share their general outlook in opposition to safetyism (protecting people from any possible harms, including offensive ideas) and in favor of free speech, I want to focus on my disagreements because dissent is more interesting and more important." Dissents on specific political implications while agreeing with the wider point. >What 'Safe Spaces' really look like on college campuses Does not mention Haidt at all; focuses mostly on "safe spaces" in the narrow sense of support groups. >Are College Campuses Really in the Thrall of Leftist Censors? Tabloid piece; focuses primarily on political bias and not overall censorship; does not mention Haidt. >Speaking Freely: What Students Think about Expression at American Colleges From FIRE, whose leadership worked with Haidt on the book; presumably not that critical of Haidt. Skipped. >Not all cultures are created equal’ says Penn Law professor in op-ed Focuses on Amy Waxman, an infamously racist professor whom even "anti-woke" firebrand Norman Finkelstein has denounced. A bit of a strawman. >Right Wing Media Has Tried to Stifle Student Speech at Evergreen State College Does not focus on Haidt; essentially agrees by highlighting censorship on college campuses, but disputes whether it is primarily leftist. >I'm a liberal professor, and my liberal students terrify me Skipped. You know why. >In College and Hiding from Scary Ideas Paywall; title indicates that it agrees with Haidt. Nowhere in this Gish gallop of links is there a serious critique of the analysis in The Coddling of the American Mind, except in the third link, where the author is explicitly saying he agrees with Haidt on most points. Using this to discredit Haidt as he discusses a completely different subject is not a very helpful contribution to the overall discussion.
  - PuppyTailWags 4y ago
    The Amy Waxman point was explicitly used by The Coddling Of The American Mind to prove its point, while the book completely ignored the context that Amy Waxman was racist, which is why it's referenced here. It's clear you haven't even read the book you're trying to defend here, so why are you doing this? Edited to add: A gish-gallop? I'm just linking a set of references that the podcast uses because of the critique that podcasts are apparently bad to listen to? Do you want a transcript or something? I'm just wanting to let folks have some context to this article dude, that isn't coming from a source without its own biases and to keep that in mind when reading. Why are you being weird about this, man?
bigbillheck 4y ago
> I'm very intrigued to hear how the cuddling that's happening college campuses isn't happening, since anyone can see it in real time They were saying the same things when I was in college 30 years ago.
- x3n0ph3n3 4y ago
  It can be argued that it's been getting steadily worse over that entire period of time.
  - educaysean 4y ago
    I agree. It's a natural condition of the human world and not directly attributable to any one specific cause. Life goes on.
FredPret 4y ago
Cuddling on campus sounds like a good idea and has been par for the course for generations. But coddling is a problem
- eastof 4y ago
  I know you're jokingly responding to GP, but I seriously wonder if there's a deeper point here. I feel like casual hookups are replacing cuddling and could be part of the issue but who knows.
ModernMech 4y ago
Interesting reading this sentiment, after first reading the recent thread about Stanford's "war" on students. The prevailing attitude there seemed to be that Stanford was in fact antagonizing their students by banning drinking, when in fact they should be providing an environment that is insulates students from real-world consequences to allow for experimentation. Now I guess this opinion is that doing so would be coddling, and that is a problem in itself. Seems like a complex issue where people can have a reasonable difference of opinion. So maybe it's not that people are denying the coddling, but they just think it's not a problem.

ChickenNugger 4y ago

This is just an ad hominem. Address the content/message, not the speaker.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
dang 4y ago
I agree with you about ad hominems but unfortunately your account has been using HN primarily for political/ideological battle, and also is arguably breaking the rule against trollish usernames here (https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comment&storyText=false&prefix=true&page=0&query=by:dang%20trollish%20username https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comme...). I've therefore banned it. If you don't want to be banned, you're welcome to email hn@ycombinator.com and give us reason to believe that you'll follow the rules in the future - they're here: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html. If you want to do that, we'll happily rename your account to something less trollish. (If you didn't intend your username to be trollish, I apologize, but I'm seeing signs that other people are taking it that way.)
- luckylion 4y ago
  This is pretty lame, given that there's a good amount of users who are basically only commenting to say "capitalism bad, mhkay", yet for some reason that's not "primarily for political/ideological battle". Applying rules evenly makes the rules seem better.
  - dang 4y ago
    We've been applying the rules evenly for years, or at least have put in years' worth of effort to do so. The problem is that no matter how evenly one applies the rules, people with strong ideological passions still feel that we are biased against their side and secretly favor the other side. I think this is because everyone is more likely to notice and place greater weight on the cases that they happen to dislike. https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=by%3Adang%20notice%20dislike&sort=byDate&type=story&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que... https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26148870 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26148870 If you're aware of accounts using HN primarily for ideological battle who we haven't asked to stop, the likeliest explanation is that we haven't seen them. We don't come close to seeing everything that gets posted here. You can help by flagging such posts or, in egregious cases, emailing us at hn@ycombinator.com. https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&query=likeliest%20explanation%20by%3Adang&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu...

xupybd 4y ago

It's fair to say that this falls under the current "culture war". Any criticism may or may not be politically motivated. Any support may or may not be politically motivated. The results of this data gathering exercise is alarming regardless.

detuned 4y ago

He's also known for hinging a lot of what he says on the concept of rapid onset gender dysphoria (the idea that kids are spontaneously turning trans with no previous indicators due to a "social contagion"). The original study for it is a survey of posts from parents who don't want their kids to be trans. It shouldn't surprise anyone that those parents weren't in the best position to catch any hints when their kids might have caught on to the idea that their parents might not like them being trans.

naasking 4y ago
You are way overstating this. Haidt might have been one of the early ones raising alarm bells, but it's well established now that the cohort of people declaring themselves to be trans has shifted dramatically to young girls only very recently [1]. [1] https://www.bmj.com/content/380/bmj.p382 https://www.bmj.com/content/380/bmj.p382
- PuppyTailWags 4y ago
  Your article doesn't seem to be quite authoritative: It shows there's actually a lot of debate about this subject. There's even a responses section that shows there's some significant issues with the article and claiming it's not neutral, leaving out significant statistics like a less than 1% regret rate of trans affirming procedures (less than a knee surgery). I think it's still up in the air, frankly.
  - naasking 4y ago
    What is authoritative is the evidence. The cohort WPATH was familiar with before 2010 and for which we have considerable data was older male-to-female transitioners. This cohort has changed significantly per the article, which is why some people are raising concerns about the lack of quality safety data for minors. Furthermore, only the US has really pushed gender affirming care for minors to this degree. Every other country has backed away from it due to low quality evidence. You know what else those countries have that the US doesn't? Universal healthcare that creates wildly different healthcare priorities. Consider that when when evaluating neutrality. > leaving out significant statistics like a less than 1% regret rate of trans affirming procedures (less than a knee surgery) The article and the responses make clear that transitioners are not followed consistently, so this evaluation is based on very spotty data. The fact is we don't know how common regret is. Even the responses that are pro-gender affirming care acknowledge that the data supporting long-term quality of life improvements is poor.