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I object to the idea that marvel puts subtle themes into anything. Marvel movie and TV writing is so slap you in the face obvious that pretending they have deep

I object to the idea that marvel puts subtle themes into anything. Marvel movie and TV writing is so slap you in the face obvious that pretending they have deeper subtle meanings is just us seeing patterns where they don't exist.

vlunkr 4y ago
I think they try to have deeper themes sometimes, but the strict formula ruins it. Winter Soldier is about questioning loyalty, Wandavision is about burying trauma. The problem is that these themes are always undone or diminished in the end, because there must always be a bad guy with strictly evil motives, and the good guys must punch him and shoot lasers at him until the audience gets tired.
yamtaddle 4y ago
... and then they pull back as soon as they might be about to say anything interesting, or take anything but a very-boring stance on any position. Looking at you, Falcon & Winter Soldier. And Wandavision, for that matter. And several of the movies—friggin' Spiderman: Far From Home, ugh. Even Black Panther ends up feeling like a missed opportunity that almost went somewhere interesting, had all the pieces in place to, then... just didn't, I suspect in part because it would likely have required a less-well-proven-in-superhero-movies story structure, so would have been riskier. The second one revisits that a little and tries to recover some of the potential the first one just left lying on the floor, but damn, that first one could have been great, period, not just "decent for a Marvel movie". It's almost better when they don't even hint that they might be trying to convey a message or have interesting themes, because then it's frustrating when they inevitably fail to follow through. It's so bad that when one of the films manages to have even fairly-safe themes and actually treats them half-decently and takes well-worn, safe positions on them (the Guardians films) it puts them at the very top of the Marvel pile, so far as that aspect is concerned, at least. They tease messages and interesting themes more often than they really commit to them, unfortunately.
- bruce511 4y ago
  While not technically in the MCU, a Marvel movie that did go a bit deeper, and off-formula, was Logan. Yes,there were some familiar beats,but I think also did a good job of exploring what it means to grow old, to look back on a life of battles won, but war lost, to envisage a different future for the next generation over a simple repeat of the mistakes of this one,in spite of the futility of that desire. It was a very different look at familiar characters,and a very sober alternative to the "hero always wins in the end" narrative.
  - yamtaddle 4y ago
    Yep, that's true, good call, Logan's got some heft. I wasn't even thinking about the X-Men movies (which are, to be fair, and as you note, only MCU-adjacent)
samstave 4y ago
Onthe inverse-meta of this comment ; there is a definite purpose to Marvel (and all other means of mass media consumption), but first some context. (This one will rile some feathers, TBS) - Secret societies (Masons, Essenes, Rosi, Mayan, Jesuits (not the ones youre familiar with) - have divided minds into two classes for centuries... "Those that think, and those that think they think" -- One of the most prolific manipulations is to get people to embed themselves into the latter, whilst thinking they are in the former. So when you provide a single layer of depth into the pattern, for people to think they are imbued with the higher (deeper) concepts - alows their conscious to align with your intent, without understanding the principles behind it, and thus, keeping (rather than detoriating) the momentum of intent... (this is how politics works. Its where the idea of 'just scratching the surface' comes from but from much more ancient times..) So for example, if you held the cast of a paint job on a Ford Mustang, and held it up - a viewer would exlaim "That is a ford Mustang!" feeling confident in their exclamation. Yet you can clearly tell that it is the image of a mustang, but beyond that... So they carry the idea of the mustang, without any clue what is true behind the reality of a mustang (its body, parts, etc...) These media pieces are rudders in the flow of thought (you may also not know that the symbol for thought in all these groups is water - as thought flows as water. For many reasons, water is used to represent thought (as its state can change from fluid, solid, gas - but with controlling elements as well -- Wont go into that here...) -- When you say "seeing patterns where they don't exist" is partially true -- as there are layers to this. Many patterns are presented by those who are not aware of the patterns they present. Either by subconscious suppression/suggestion, or other unrecognized (by them) familiarity, or by soul-desire (not for HN) connections... But symbolism is literally in every single thing you do, see, hear, read and SAY. Etymology is amazing - especially when you have historical context to the origin of certain incantations of speech.
JPws_Prntr_Fngr 4y ago
[flagged]

vlunkr 4y ago

I think they try to have deeper themes sometimes, but the strict formula ruins it. Winter Soldier is about questioning loyalty, Wandavision is about burying trauma. The problem is that these themes are always undone or diminished in the end, because there must always be a bad guy with strictly evil motives, and the good guys must punch him and shoot lasers at him until the audience gets tired.

yamtaddle 4y ago

... and then they pull back as soon as they might be about to say anything interesting, or take anything but a very-boring stance on any position. Looking at you, Falcon & Winter Soldier. And Wandavision, for that matter. And several of the movies—friggin' Spiderman: Far From Home, ugh. Even Black Panther ends up feeling like a missed opportunity that almost went somewhere interesting, had all the pieces in place to, then... just didn't, I suspect in part because it would likely have required a less-well-proven-in-superhero-movies story structure, so would have been riskier. The second one revisits that a little and tries to recover some of the potential the first one just left lying on the floor, but damn, that first one could have been great, period, not just "decent for a Marvel movie". It's almost better when they don't even hint that they might be trying to convey a message or have interesting themes, because then it's frustrating when they inevitably fail to follow through. It's so bad that when one of the films manages to have even fairly-safe themes and actually treats them half-decently and takes well-worn, safe positions on them (the Guardians films) it puts them at the very top of the Marvel pile, so far as that aspect is concerned, at least. They tease messages and interesting themes more often than they really commit to them, unfortunately.

bruce511 4y ago
While not technically in the MCU, a Marvel movie that did go a bit deeper, and off-formula, was Logan. Yes,there were some familiar beats,but I think also did a good job of exploring what it means to grow old, to look back on a life of battles won, but war lost, to envisage a different future for the next generation over a simple repeat of the mistakes of this one,in spite of the futility of that desire. It was a very different look at familiar characters,and a very sober alternative to the "hero always wins in the end" narrative.
- yamtaddle 4y ago
  Yep, that's true, good call, Logan's got some heft. I wasn't even thinking about the X-Men movies (which are, to be fair, and as you note, only MCU-adjacent)

samstave 4y ago

Onthe inverse-meta of this comment ; there is a definite purpose to Marvel (and all other means of mass media consumption), but first some context. (This one will rile some feathers, TBS) - Secret societies (Masons, Essenes, Rosi, Mayan, Jesuits (not the ones youre familiar with) - have divided minds into two classes for centuries... "Those that think, and those that think they think" -- One of the most prolific manipulations is to get people to embed themselves into the latter, whilst thinking they are in the former. So when you provide a single layer of depth into the pattern, for people to think they are imbued with the higher (deeper) concepts - alows their conscious to align with your intent, without understanding the principles behind it, and thus, keeping (rather than detoriating) the momentum of intent... (this is how politics works. Its where the idea of 'just scratching the surface' comes from but from much more ancient times..) So for example, if you held the cast of a paint job on a Ford Mustang, and held it up - a viewer would exlaim "That is a ford Mustang!" feeling confident in their exclamation. Yet you can clearly tell that it is the image of a mustang, but beyond that... So they carry the idea of the mustang, without any clue what is true behind the reality of a mustang (its body, parts, etc...) These media pieces are rudders in the flow of thought (you may also not know that the symbol for thought in all these groups is water - as thought flows as water. For many reasons, water is used to represent thought (as its state can change from fluid, solid, gas - but with controlling elements as well -- Wont go into that here...) -- When you say "seeing patterns where they don't exist" is partially true -- as there are layers to this. Many patterns are presented by those who are not aware of the patterns they present. Either by subconscious suppression/suggestion, or other unrecognized (by them) familiarity, or by soul-desire (not for HN) connections... But symbolism is literally in every single thing you do, see, hear, read and SAY. Etymology is amazing - especially when you have historical context to the origin of certain incantations of speech.

JPws_Prntr_Fngr 4y ago

[flagged]