4 ms·

I've known a few people who have taught ethics courses. None of them were ethical by any stretch of the imagination. Maybe I've just met a bad batch.

Veen 4y ago
There are studies that show ethicists are no more ethical than the general population. https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/09515089.2012.727135?src=recsys https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/09515089.2012.7... > However, on no issue did ethicists show unequivocally better behavior than the two comparison groups. https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/09515089.2019.1587912?journalCode=cphp20& https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/09515089.2019.15... > Our results indicate a successful replication of the original effect that ethicists do not behave any morally better compared to other academics across the vast majority of normative issues.
- notch898a 4y ago
  I wonder if fundamental ethical values are mostly absorbed in childhood or through genetic instinct. At some point it seems most people would just use greater knowledge of law, ethics, etc to either become better at arguing why what they did was right or wrong or use the details to get better at not getting caught. Teaching a grown adult to internalize a new value system would appear quite difficult from my observation.
  - throwawaysleep 4y ago
    I have not met many people who wouldn't compromise their ethics for some benefit. This is especially true if they think nobody will find out. So I am not sure there are fundamental ethical values.
    - repomies69 4y ago
      Also, the tendency to do so depends on your financial status. Poor people will happily sell thei ethics, those who are more well off don't have to.
      - mellavora 4y ago
        I've usually seen the opposite.
      - fullstop 4y ago
        I'd argue that the opposite is more common. People who are well off can often feel that they are entitled to things.
      - djbusby 4y ago
        The situation we're discussing involves wealthy folk doing unethical things.
- sidewndr46 4y ago
  Why would anyone expect this in the first place? It'd be like expecting the pastor to be more or less religious, or more moral than his following. Ultimately they are just going to be a single sampling of the population, which means they have a pretty reasonable probability of being average.
  - colpabar 4y ago
    Well idk about you but if I wanted to learn karate I would find an instructor who is better at karate than the average person to learn from.
    - tsgagnon 4y ago
      We are talking about being taught in an academic context, not a practical context. So, a better analogue might be that you wouldn't necessarily expect a martial arts historian to be better at the application of martial arts than the average person.
      - dmurray 4y ago
        I think I would?
  - capableweb 4y ago
    Well yes, I think the usual intuition is that the people who preach something (religiously or not) should be better at what they are preaching than the ones they are preaching to. Right or wrong, I think that's a pretty common presumption to make. Might be small sample, but that sample is also biased to have a lot of knowledge about what they are preaching (supposedly), meaning they put higher importance about it compared to other things.
  - nathan_compton 4y ago
    ??? You'd expect Pastors or Ethicists to be more moral/ethical because they spend a lot of time thinking about being moral/ethical compared to members of the general population. Seems pretty intuitive to me.
- knodi123 4y ago
  Kinda like how marriage therapists have slightly higher divorce rates than the national average? https://psychcentral.com/pro/do-marriage-family-therapists-have-better-marriages#1 https://psychcentral.com/pro/do-marriage-family-therapists-h...
  - 0cf8612b2e1e 4y ago
    Makes sense to me. I suspect most people are not quick to end a bad marriage, and will hold out hoping things will improve. Marriage therapists might be more likely to act on a bad situation and extricate themselves from it.
  - jeffrallen 4y ago
    And IT people can't get the printer to work either?
- mrguyorama 4y ago
  How can they claim any could have "unequivocally better behavior"? What is their ground source of truth for morals?
  - GalenErso 4y ago
    Well, asking the ethicists if the ethicists are acting ethically would not be unbiased.
Zetice 4y ago
You've got to know where the line is to teach people not to cross it!
- bee_rider 4y ago
  Yeah for most of us, ethics is more of a “know it when you see it, don’t get to close to the line” sort of thing. Although there definitely are hard ethical question out there, so the study of it is good, they just don’t show up that often in day-to-day life.
rootsudo 4y ago
"None of them were ethical by any stretch of the imagination." At least they know the course material well. Isn't that the reason why you're really enrolling in the class for?
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
r00fus 4y ago
Naturally Voldemort cosplaying as a "defense against the dark arts" instructor was clearly an implication that regulatory capture is way to hide power.

Veen 4y ago

There are studies that show ethicists are no more ethical than the general population. https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/09515089.2012.727135?src=recsys https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/09515089.2012.7... > However, on no issue did ethicists show unequivocally better behavior than the two comparison groups. https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/09515089.2019.1587912?journalCode=cphp20& https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/09515089.2019.15... > Our results indicate a successful replication of the original effect that ethicists do not behave any morally better compared to other academics across the vast majority of normative issues.

notch898a 4y ago
I wonder if fundamental ethical values are mostly absorbed in childhood or through genetic instinct. At some point it seems most people would just use greater knowledge of law, ethics, etc to either become better at arguing why what they did was right or wrong or use the details to get better at not getting caught. Teaching a grown adult to internalize a new value system would appear quite difficult from my observation.
- throwawaysleep 4y ago
  I have not met many people who wouldn't compromise their ethics for some benefit. This is especially true if they think nobody will find out. So I am not sure there are fundamental ethical values.
  - repomies69 4y ago
    Also, the tendency to do so depends on your financial status. Poor people will happily sell thei ethics, those who are more well off don't have to.
    - mellavora 4y ago
      I've usually seen the opposite.
    - fullstop 4y ago
      I'd argue that the opposite is more common. People who are well off can often feel that they are entitled to things.
    - djbusby 4y ago
      The situation we're discussing involves wealthy folk doing unethical things.
sidewndr46 4y ago
Why would anyone expect this in the first place? It'd be like expecting the pastor to be more or less religious, or more moral than his following. Ultimately they are just going to be a single sampling of the population, which means they have a pretty reasonable probability of being average.
- colpabar 4y ago
  Well idk about you but if I wanted to learn karate I would find an instructor who is better at karate than the average person to learn from.
  - tsgagnon 4y ago
    We are talking about being taught in an academic context, not a practical context. So, a better analogue might be that you wouldn't necessarily expect a martial arts historian to be better at the application of martial arts than the average person.
    - dmurray 4y ago
      I think I would?
- capableweb 4y ago
  Well yes, I think the usual intuition is that the people who preach something (religiously or not) should be better at what they are preaching than the ones they are preaching to. Right or wrong, I think that's a pretty common presumption to make. Might be small sample, but that sample is also biased to have a lot of knowledge about what they are preaching (supposedly), meaning they put higher importance about it compared to other things.
- nathan_compton 4y ago
  ??? You'd expect Pastors or Ethicists to be more moral/ethical because they spend a lot of time thinking about being moral/ethical compared to members of the general population. Seems pretty intuitive to me.
knodi123 4y ago
Kinda like how marriage therapists have slightly higher divorce rates than the national average? https://psychcentral.com/pro/do-marriage-family-therapists-have-better-marriages#1 https://psychcentral.com/pro/do-marriage-family-therapists-h...
- 0cf8612b2e1e 4y ago
  Makes sense to me. I suspect most people are not quick to end a bad marriage, and will hold out hoping things will improve. Marriage therapists might be more likely to act on a bad situation and extricate themselves from it.
- jeffrallen 4y ago
  And IT people can't get the printer to work either?
mrguyorama 4y ago
How can they claim any could have "unequivocally better behavior"? What is their ground source of truth for morals?
- GalenErso 4y ago
  Well, asking the ethicists if the ethicists are acting ethically would not be unbiased.

Zetice 4y ago

You've got to know where the line is to teach people not to cross it!

bee_rider 4y ago
Yeah for most of us, ethics is more of a “know it when you see it, don’t get to close to the line” sort of thing. Although there definitely are hard ethical question out there, so the study of it is good, they just don’t show up that often in day-to-day life.

rootsudo 4y ago

"None of them were ethical by any stretch of the imagination." At least they know the course material well. Isn't that the reason why you're really enrolling in the class for?

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

r00fus 4y ago

Naturally Voldemort cosplaying as a "defense against the dark arts" instructor was clearly an implication that regulatory capture is way to hide power.