4 ms·

> there are a lot of things that make your life better at the expense of society has a whole There's no better example of this than the discussion on health in

> there are a lot of things that make your life better at the expense of society has a whole There's no better example of this than the discussion on health insurance here on HN a few days ago, where people with health insurance were opposing universal healthcare because they'd have to "compete with the general public for treatment access". How do you fight it though? There's no incentive for anyone to willingly choose to have a worse personal situation for a greater good.

mrguyorama 4y ago
There are incentives. Selfishness isn't everyone's driving factor, unlike what extremely selfish people want you to believe. Plenty of people believe in morals and other reasons to help their neighbor at their own expense, and these feelings seem to follow a high level of education and awareness of your fellow human beings.
- prottog 4y ago
  As long as you don't think that just because someone doesn't agree with your way of helping fellow human beings, they are necessarily uneducated or heartless. As an example, just in the last six months or so, I took considerable time and effort out of my day to help absolute strangers in two different occasions to change their flat tires. Both times I was soaked through in sweat by the time I was done, but I was happy to help. Does it follow from my willingness to do this that I would be in support of, say, a government program for roadside assistance (call it AAA-for-All)? Hell no. America once excelled at civil society, but over time government has subsumed more and more of those functions; to everyone's detriment, if you asked me.
  - fnimick 4y ago
    Here's the problem: we can't rely on "civil society", because people love to gatekeep who is "deserving" of help and who should be left to suffer. Usually on racial or gender lines. I'm not calling you prejudiced, to be clear, but your example of "we should all rely on each other to help out" is exactly what racists use to justify cutting welfare and saying communities and churches should handle it, for example, with the dogwhistle that only those "deserving" will get assistance. But "welfare queens" who dare to be Black? No support for them!
    - prottog 4y ago
      I fully admit that this country used to have that problem in the past. Here and now, I don't think nearly as much, though it seems like mass media has been doing its level best to fan the flames of a race war ever since George Floyd. I'm not sure what part of the country you live in or what your background is, but it is my sincere belief that there are not nearly as many racists in America in this day and age as you imply. I live in a majority black city in a Deep South red state (and I myself am visibly nonwhite), and I observe nothing but pleasant interactions between people of all skin tones. It's honestly a strange difference from back when I lived in a stereotypically "coastal liberal elite" city in a blue state, where every other lawn had a BLM sign but approximately zero black people lived there. Here? Approximately zero BLM signs but people of different races being neighbors and getting along just fine. Perhaps I'll be proven wrong, but it is my experience that outside of small pockets, there is no racism of the sort you describe, where someone may not extend private kindness to another because they're black or any other race.
      - fnimick 4y ago
        Your experience is in urban areas that are predominantly liberal. You realize that in rural areas people are discriminated against regularly or even killed for being a different color? In case you need a refresher of an example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Ahmaud_Arbery https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Ahmaud_Arbery
        prottog 4y ago
        I promise you the city I live in now is not accurately described as liberal, and I'm minutes away from rural areas. This state is in fact one of the top 10 most rural states. I'm familiar with the Arbery tragedy. You're extrapolating from this and maybe other high-profile cases to make the argument that there are racists all over the country who are willing to kill. The actual data paints a different picture, with there having been anywhere from five to ten thousand reported hate crimes annually over the past decade or so, with only a few tens of those being murders. Statistically you're about as likely to be killed by a lightning strike as someone murdering you due to your race. Your claim that people are "discriminated against regularly", of course, is too vague for me to counter.
stametseater 4y ago
> How do you fight it though? Elect whichever "populist" politician offends the progressive reformers the most.

mrguyorama 4y ago

There are incentives. Selfishness isn't everyone's driving factor, unlike what extremely selfish people want you to believe. Plenty of people believe in morals and other reasons to help their neighbor at their own expense, and these feelings seem to follow a high level of education and awareness of your fellow human beings.

prottog 4y ago
As long as you don't think that just because someone doesn't agree with your way of helping fellow human beings, they are necessarily uneducated or heartless. As an example, just in the last six months or so, I took considerable time and effort out of my day to help absolute strangers in two different occasions to change their flat tires. Both times I was soaked through in sweat by the time I was done, but I was happy to help. Does it follow from my willingness to do this that I would be in support of, say, a government program for roadside assistance (call it AAA-for-All)? Hell no. America once excelled at civil society, but over time government has subsumed more and more of those functions; to everyone's detriment, if you asked me.
- fnimick 4y ago
  Here's the problem: we can't rely on "civil society", because people love to gatekeep who is "deserving" of help and who should be left to suffer. Usually on racial or gender lines. I'm not calling you prejudiced, to be clear, but your example of "we should all rely on each other to help out" is exactly what racists use to justify cutting welfare and saying communities and churches should handle it, for example, with the dogwhistle that only those "deserving" will get assistance. But "welfare queens" who dare to be Black? No support for them!
  - prottog 4y ago
    I fully admit that this country used to have that problem in the past. Here and now, I don't think nearly as much, though it seems like mass media has been doing its level best to fan the flames of a race war ever since George Floyd. I'm not sure what part of the country you live in or what your background is, but it is my sincere belief that there are not nearly as many racists in America in this day and age as you imply. I live in a majority black city in a Deep South red state (and I myself am visibly nonwhite), and I observe nothing but pleasant interactions between people of all skin tones. It's honestly a strange difference from back when I lived in a stereotypically "coastal liberal elite" city in a blue state, where every other lawn had a BLM sign but approximately zero black people lived there. Here? Approximately zero BLM signs but people of different races being neighbors and getting along just fine. Perhaps I'll be proven wrong, but it is my experience that outside of small pockets, there is no racism of the sort you describe, where someone may not extend private kindness to another because they're black or any other race.
    - fnimick 4y ago
      Your experience is in urban areas that are predominantly liberal. You realize that in rural areas people are discriminated against regularly or even killed for being a different color? In case you need a refresher of an example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Ahmaud_Arbery https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Ahmaud_Arbery
      - prottog 4y ago
        I promise you the city I live in now is not accurately described as liberal, and I'm minutes away from rural areas. This state is in fact one of the top 10 most rural states. I'm familiar with the Arbery tragedy. You're extrapolating from this and maybe other high-profile cases to make the argument that there are racists all over the country who are willing to kill. The actual data paints a different picture, with there having been anywhere from five to ten thousand reported hate crimes annually over the past decade or so, with only a few tens of those being murders. Statistically you're about as likely to be killed by a lightning strike as someone murdering you due to your race. Your claim that people are "discriminated against regularly", of course, is too vague for me to counter.

stametseater 4y ago

> How do you fight it though? Elect whichever "populist" politician offends the progressive reformers the most.