5 ms·
Why subscribe to the endurance running hypothesis, though? There are no contemporary examples of humans hunting that way, and hominids were already making tools
by ravenstine 4y ago
Why subscribe to the endurance running hypothesis, though? There are no contemporary examples of humans hunting that way, and hominids were already making tools by the time they had developed to subsist on meat. The endurance/persistence hypothesis doesn't even make sense without tools like spears, knives, or arrows, because humans don't kill their prey by biting into them. If they had access to primitive weaponry, why would they waste energy running when they could instead ambush? Even other species like chimps and dolphins, that can't chuck spears, hunt by surrounding their prey. The only reason the hypothesis is even a thing is because people find it confusing that we sweat so much.
If anything, the persistence running hypothesis in some way discredits the idea that hominids relied on rotten meat. If they could catch fresh prey, why eat spoiled meat? Yet our stomach acid has a very low pH, more acidic than even that of cats.
What's more likely, in my opinion, is hominids began to supplement their diet by eating the leftover kills of larger predators as well as any rotting carcasses they may have encountered, and then developed hunting strategies around when they began developing tools. Even having sharp knives made of stone or volcanic glass would have been an obvious advantage in food procurement, and it wouldn't have taken millions of years to figure out that slashing an animal's throat in the right place would take it down quickly. No need for persistence running at all if a group can corner a mammoth or buffalo or lead it to a dead end.
- walkhour 4y ago> There are no contemporary examples of humans hunting that way. There are some examples [0], although admittedly they are isolated cases. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persistence_hunting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persistence_hunting
- burkaman 4y agoThis is an unusually poorly written Wikipedia article with a very weird style and a lot of unsourced statements. I would be very hesitant to trust it without extensively reading the sources.
- mhb 4y agoRunning After Antelope: Scott Carrier's story of trying for twelve years to chase down and catch an antelope by foot. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35362140 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35362140
- dmm 4y agoIn her book "The Old Way", Elizabeth Marshall Thomas describes the Kalahari San who she lived with in the 1950s. Despite having bows and arrows some members of that group would persistence hunt. Dmitriy Lykov(1940-1981) of the Lykov family living an isolated life in Siberia developed a method of persistence hunting, despite or perhaps because of, the absence of any sort of hunting culture in his tiny, isolated group. Those are just two very recent examples off the top of my head of people persistence hunting for survival. Maybe you're out of your depth on this subject.
- trws 4y agoIn addition to the direct persistence hunting, also note that most bow and arrow hunting or even spear hunting is, in and of itself, a form of persistence hunting. The expectation that an arrow will take down the animal where it is hit is usually not how it would have worked with more primitive bows except with very small game. The animal would still have to be followed and possibly struck more times to actually bring it down. Bull fighting is a modern extension of this, though in an enclosed space.
- precompute 4y agoSome tribes in Africa also drink milk mixed with animal blood. Not enough water to go around.
- jodrellblank 4y ago(Off topic) “despite or perhaps because of, sucks” - https://idlewords.com/2003/04/despite_or_perhaps_because_of_sucks.htm https://idlewords.com/2003/04/despite_or_perhaps_because_of_...
- FrustratedMonky 4y ago[flagged]
- senko 4y agoGood GPT.
- ravenstine 4y agoCertainly seems like it. Whether it's GPT or a human, this is wrong: > Finally, while it is true that the low pH of our stomach acid suggests that our ancestors were not relying on rotten meat as a primary food source, it is important to remember that scavenging for meat was likely an important part of their diet. It is also possible that the ability to run long distances gave our ancestors an advantage in scavenging for meat, as they could cover greater distances in search of carrion. The point I was making was that our ancestors were relying on scavenged, and probably spoiled meat.
- FrustratedMonky 4y agoYes. Know it is rude (is it impolite to use GPT?), but I've been playing with GPT and thought I'd give it a shot to see if anyone noticed, or if HN had any detection.
- bernawil 4y agothis somehow always comes up when anybody mentions human sweating or how good we are walking large distances. But whoever thinks it's feasible to hunt any animal worth its calories just jogging behind it has never chased a playful dog. A furry mammal with no sweat glands has way more endurance than any fit man and let's not talk about top speed. You'd never catch it.
- SketchySeaBeast 4y agoPlus, now you're exhausted and you've chased it for how long? If you've run for the last 18 hours exhausting the gazelle, home is now an 18 hour jog back the other way, and you won't be jogging, you'll be lugging a gazelle with you and you're already utterly exhausted.
- pegasus 4y agoWhy would you be in such a rush to return home?
- SketchySeaBeast 4y agoConceivably everyone you left at home is waiting for you and the meat.
- jrootabega 4y agoIt would make sense to try to flank the animal and get it to run where you wanted it to.
- mklepaczewski 4y agoIs gazelle able to jog for 18 hours in a hot day? Or even for 2 hours? Keep in mind that the predator chooses the prey. Humans didn't had to chase gazelles, they may choose something bigger and slower.
- pegasus 4y agoNot so: https://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/27/health/27well.html https://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/27/health/27well.html "But when it comes to long distances, humans can outrun almost any animal. Because we cool by sweating rather than panting, we can stay cool at speeds and distances that would overheat other animals. On a hot day, the two scientists wrote, a human could even outrun a horse in a 26.2-mile marathon."
- kybernetyk 4y ago>If they had access to primitive weaponry, why would they waste energy running when they could instead ambush? This is the main point why I don't believe in the endurance running hypothesis. Humans are lazy. Why would they opt to run for days over just waiting at the local watering hole for prey?
- krona 4y ago> Humans are lazy I don't think you realize how easy it is if you know how to track and jog for 2-3 hours for antelope, even less for cats. All you need is a club. 'Running' isn't necessary.
- chimpanzee 4y agoPlenty of humans “run for days” for pure enjoyment. Not to say the ancients would be so foolish when energy expenditure is a concern. But run for days, for a purpose, with companions, releasing endorphins throughout, and then topping that off with a nice, rewarding meal full of fat and protein? I don’t see why not.
- exclusiv 4y agoTrue but I watched some documentary where some westerner went to spend time with a tribe. The tribe thought it was absolutely hilarious that he would get up early and just go run for fun.
- throwaway290 4y agoShort-lived strategy. Animals are not stupid and learn to go to a different watering hole super fast.
- djitz 4y agoIt’s not easy to stalk animals built to spot predators — especially in the terrain where I’ve seen modern persistence hunters. Many watering hole types of animals also don’t just fall right over after being struck, particularly with a “rudimentary” weapon. Even if you get a decent shot off, you will still most likely be chasing it for quite a while. Not to mention the dangers of what’s hanging around, looking to take what you (hopefully) managed to score. The odds were not in our favor!
- daliusd 4y agoWhat is here then https://youtu.be/826HMLoiE_o https://youtu.be/826HMLoiE_o ? Was this debunked as fake or something ?
- hyperthesis 4y agoAttenborough, persistence hunt https://youtube.com/watch?v=826HMLoiE_o https://youtube.com/watch?v=826HMLoiE_o
- mklepaczewski 4y ago> If they had access to primitive weaponry, why would they waste energy running when they could instead ambush? Have you ever fought a dog, a deer or a boar? Fighting means wounds, possibly fatal ones. Spear or no spear, you're going to die in one of those fights. Running on the other hand is pretty safe and not that tiring, especially if you've been doing it for years and your weight is close to 50-60kg. Ability to sweat more should be even more advantegous in a warm climate. I sometimes run in 30°C for an hour / an hour and a half. It's hard, but you get used to it. I imagine most animals would just drop by that time.
- majormajor 4y agoWould you want to chase animals you wouldn't want to fight? What if they turned around and tried to fight you? You have less tactical advantage than trying to hunt or ambush them with stealth, and if you turn to run maybe you get away but then you've burned up a lot of your extra stamina? Give me the bow and arrow or spears so I can wound the target before /while chasing it, vs just popping out and hoping it ran away from me instead of at me.
- chimpanzee 4y agoDeer and such will not fight unless there are no other options and it has the necessary energy and verve. Apart from immediate physical entrapment, they do not realize that they likely have no options in the long run (pun fully intended). So they run and keep running until they fall into the trough of energy exhaustion. The first weapons would have been far more basic and require closer proximity than that of a bow and arrow or a throwing spear. So, to your point, prudent early humans would have targeted only the weak, sickly or fatigued. A hot and extended hunt would inevitably result in fatigue, so early humans would have learned the tactic naturally.
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- snthpy 4y ago> Why subscribe to the endurance running hypothesis, though? There are no contemporary examples of humans hunting that way, I believe the Khoi in the Kalahari still hunt this way. I also thought that's one of the reasons we might have lost our hair and the way we perspire?