11 ms·

I don't see how that's surprising, at least if you subscribe to the Endurance Running Hypothesis (and I do). Any prey humans used to hunt using what we now know

by detuur 4y ago

I don't see how that's surprising, at least if you subscribe to the Endurance Running Hypothesis (and I do). Any prey humans used to hunt using what we now know as persistence hunting would have been large game. Especially in the hot, tropic climates early humans seemed to have thrived in, such meat would have started to spoil, even if hunted fresh, before any such hunter would have had the time to bring it back to the family group, let alone consume it. Meats in general have a very short shelf life and if we look to the various independently developed preservation methods in human groups around the world, many of them seem to be centered around a controlled decomposition by "favourable" organisms (like the maggots in the seal story). There's also the simple observation that no doubt many of us have already made: animals all around us seem to have no issues with partially decomposed meat. Dogs don't seem to mind it, nor do cats, nor do other primates like chimpanzees. It's obvious that at least in our very recent evolutionary history we had far higher tolerance to spoilage.

vuln 4y ago
> It's obvious that at most in our very recent evolutionary history we had far higher tolerance to spoilage. I wonder what effect that’s had on a humans immune system. I’d imagine eating spoiled meat containing bacteria, etc was giving their immune system a run for its money until a tolerance was built.
- zadler 4y ago
  It might have been a good thing?
  - zikduruqe 4y ago
    Just look up the Hadza tribe's gut microbiome. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/36238714/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/36238714/ https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms4654 https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms4654 That's probably as close as you are going to get to truly paleo diets... not paleo-bros that eat only bacon, butter and meats.
    - AlbertCory 4y ago
      I was going to post about "paleo" diets, but you beat me to it. The Paleo Cafe would get closed down by the Health Department real fast if it actually served paleo foods.
      - klyrs 4y ago
        I'm picturing a guy hauling a roadkill deer in, tossing it on a table and yelling "meat's up!" I mean, sure, they didn't have cars back then, but it's better than letting trash-eating deer meat go to waste.
        AlbertCory 4y ago
        I dimly recall a New Yorker article about people who eat roadkill. They do have their limits though. It has to be fresh roadkill :)
        klyrs 4y ago
        New paleo motto: "Maggots is protein"
  - vuln 4y ago
    I see how easy it would be for me at least to assume they had better immune systems from eating the spoiled meat. If true our modern immune systems are most likely way less effective than theirs at that time.
  - rybosworld 4y ago
    There does seem to be this notion that being "too hygienic" is a negative thing because it doesn't train your immune system. That's only kind of true. Exposing a healthy person to small amounts of weakened virus tends to build immunity. Exposing the healthy person to large amounts of the virus overwhelms the immune system and may not even lead to a strong viral immunity. If I had to guess, eating rotten meat is something that indigenous peoples have adapted to over time (and some individuals died along the way to that adaptation) and they are resistant to the specific things in rotten meat that make modern day humans sick. I think it would be wrong to suggest the rotten meat eaters are somehow better off for doing this, or that they have stronger immune systems in general. Immune systems aren't like a muscle that you can repeatedly train to get stronger and stronger and stronger ad infinitum. Immunity also comes at a cost. This isn't talked about often. But it's not "Free" for your body to learn and maintain immunity to specific infections.
    - legulere 4y ago
      Especially in the last years, the hygiene hypothesis is not about a lack of immune training against harmful microbes, but a lack of encounter of so called old friends, harmless microbes. https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1700688114 https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1700688114
- Retric 4y ago
  The major issue isn’t the bacteria but their byproducts. Ex: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Botulism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Botulism This is why you can’t render rotten meat safe by simply cooking it. That said, people still age meat. Small birds for will get left for 4-9 days in a cool space before being butchered etc. https://magazine.outdoornebraska.gov/2014/01/hanging-pheasants-wild-fowl/ https://magazine.outdoornebraska.gov/2014/01/hanging-pheasan...
  - giraffe_lady 4y ago
    Yep other than a couple notable exceptions like salmonella, this is the norm for food poisoning. It's intoxication from metabolic byproducts, not infection. Remains one of the biggest lay misunderstandings of food safety though. "Just cook it out" plus "your nose can tell" (it can't, spoilage microbes aren't usually illness microbes) are false beliefs that still get people killed.
    - foobarian 4y ago
      Curious about sources for this. I see some indication that botulism toxin can be destroyed by cooking, though the bar is pretty high - needs to be boiled over 5 minutes. So lesser temperature methods such as grilling the meat may not be sufficient, but something like stewing over many hours seems like would work fine.
      - giraffe_lady 4y ago
        I'm not gonna have a peer reviewed journal article for you or anything. I learned this in the food safety class you have to go through before managing a kitchen in a lot of jurisdictions. > stewing over many hours seems like would work fine. It won't! Good luck with it though.
        foobarian 4y ago
        Well I get that would make sense in that kind of environment. Best way to not hurt your customers is to never even risk it - why would you? But my agenda is more selfish. I like to cold-smoke meats for adding to stews, based on the knowledge that stewing in > 85'C [1] water will destroy the botulism toxin. I could just stay away from cold-smoked meats to be safe; but then I would lose out on some of the tastiest food ever :-) It can be a confusing topic because there are 3 different things to worry about: the active bacteria, the spores, and the toxin. Of the 3, the spores are the most resistant to heat, and according to the WHO link [1] can survive multiple hours in boiling water. However the toxin seems relatively unstable. I really need to track down their sources though. [1] https://www.who.int/news-room/fact-sheets/detail/botulism https://www.who.int/news-room/fact-sheets/detail/botulism
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
leereeves 4y ago
> Dogs don't seem to mind [spoiled meat] I've recently seen proof of that. A dead horse was left on a trail I frequently hike, and I saw dogs eating it a week later. I don't even want to imagine how awful that meat was after sitting in the sun for a week.
- SketchySeaBeast 4y ago
  That said, all the pets I've had throw up way more than I do. I think we're ignoring the very real possibility that ancient people were constantly living with some level of gastrointestinal problems.
  - mschuster91 4y ago
    > I think we're ignoring the very real possibility that ancient people were constantly living with some level of gastrointestinal problems. We do know that humanity from its earliest days over the Rome Empire [1] up to, what, maybe a century or even less ago has had massive infestations of all kinds of parasites, including gastrointestinal. Would it be possible that these parasites actually could have a symbiotic relationship, in helping to break down spoiled food? [1] https://www.livescience.com/53303-ancient-rome-infested-with-parasites.html https://www.livescience.com/53303-ancient-rome-infested-with...
  - mrguyorama 4y ago
    I mean many modern people also live with constant gastrointestinal problems, and I'm not talking about teens eating taco bell and mountain dew every day and wondering why they have bathroom troubles, I'm talking about average people eating a varied and healthy diet with IBS.
    - SketchySeaBeast 4y ago
      You're not wrong and that's an excellent example. I'm questioning the idea that somehow people were able to consume this food impact-free. I struggle with the common narrative that somehow people were healthier and better in some dark forgotten past and we should return to those times for our own well being. There often seems to be promises that conditions like IBS would stop existing if we did that. But maybe ancient man was cool with having near-constantly runny poos because there was no alternative.
Joker_vD 4y ago
Not to mention diet of the peoples living in tundra that includes such wonderful stuff as e.g. igunaq.
- eternalban 4y ago
  Had to look that up. -- http://www.nmto.ca/sites/default/files/igunaq.pdf http://www.nmto.ca/sites/default/files/igunaq.pdf -- Igunaq-Aged meat Igunaq is fermented ( aged ) walrus or seal meat that has been cached away for future use. Meat is usually cached beneath stones or pebbles. Aged walrus meat is extremely high in protein, iron and vitamins. Igunaq has been traditional medicine to keep the digestive system clean, as it flushes away anything in its way. It is also great eating for those who have acquired the taste and can go beyond the smell. Too fermented, igunaq can be poisonous and can kill people. People have died from eating over-aged meat from walrus and polar bear. These two mammals are very rich in vitamins. The fat is often light green colored when the meat is aged properly. The fat will be darker green if the meat is over-aged or even brownish. Among Inuit it is a delicacy usually eaten with apples. To prepare the meat for eating people find that washing in cold water is better than washing with hot water. Cold water takes away the smell more. Igloolik and Hall Beach are known to have the best igunaq in Baffin Island. These two communities are blessed with walrus and proper gravel. Meat ages better when it is fermented in loose gravel. It takes time to make good igunaq. One has to store away the meat at the right season when it is not too hot or too cold. Temperature plays a big role. Cached meat is usually saved for the winter for people to eat but polar bears are known to steal the cache before people can claim them. Regardless the weight of the stones for caching, the polar bear will easily get at it. Polar bears are extremely strong animals. Common phrase...“ I wonder how many polar bears I have fed to date?” Meaning...Hoping that the cache is not eaten by polar bears yet. As noted igunaq is good for the digestive system as it cleans it completely of any foreign objects such as viruses and sickness a person may have. A person may experience a natural “high” if they have not eaten aged meat for a while. Men who grew up with igunaq are usually more physically muscular than those who have not. Igloolik, Hall Beach and Cape Dorset have muscular looking men compared to other communities on Baffin Island. It is believed that igunaq contributes to the physical appearance of the people who eat it. Igunaq is such a delicacy that people that have no access to it will fly it in from communities that do have good igunaq. Igunaq is often brought in at special occasions such as Christmas for community feasts. Some communities look forward to Inuit organizations having meetings in their communities...igunaq is surely to be part of the feast. Igunaq when on sale, will sell better than fresh meat. Interestingly due to its odor some airlines in the north will not carry igunaq. People often have to disguise it to get the aged meat on a plane to take them home. It is said that if you can get beyond the smell, you’ll enjoy the food as it is very nutritious and gives you energy and warmth....and you will be physically ready for your next outing. On a final note a full stomach will also make you concentrate better. Try it! It’s a true Northern experience! By Elijah Tigullaraq June 2008 -- end --
Connor_Creegan1 4y ago
>It's obvious that at least in our very recent evolutionary history we had far higher tolerance to spoilage. I would agree, both in terms of actual immunity and taste response, although generally-speaking eating rotten meat (especially when well-sourced) is not nearly as risky as common wisdom would make it out to be. Many folks in the deeper circles of online carnivoria dabble in "high meat" (fermented rotten meat, a method of preparing meat learned from Inuit peoples who would feed it to their dogs) and swear by it, even if the taste can be unbearable to the uninitiated.
- finnh 4y ago
  Where did I last read about high meat, again? Ah yes, the Nov 22, 2010 issue of the New Yorker: https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2010/11/22/natures-spoils https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2010/11/22/natures-spoils big h/t for "deeper circles of online carnivoria", you win phrase of the day
- SketchySeaBeast 4y ago
  Fermentation implies an intentional process that protects against spoilage. I don't think anyone considers sauerkraut or wine rotten food.
  - Connor_Creegan1 4y ago
    Good point, although I think whether or not animal flesh is "spoiled" after spending weeks or months fermenting in a jar might depend on who you ask.
- prottog 4y ago
  > Many folks in the deeper circles of online carnivoria The wonders of the internet!
- MayeulC 4y ago
  It's still done in some French cuisine/hunting practices, though much less common nowadays: "Faisandage", where small game can be left to rot in a relatively controlled way for months: https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservation_de_la_viande#Maturation_et_faisandage https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservation_de_la_viande#Matu...
ravenstine 4y ago
Why subscribe to the endurance running hypothesis, though? There are no contemporary examples of humans hunting that way, and hominids were already making tools by the time they had developed to subsist on meat. The endurance/persistence hypothesis doesn't even make sense without tools like spears, knives, or arrows, because humans don't kill their prey by biting into them. If they had access to primitive weaponry, why would they waste energy running when they could instead ambush? Even other species like chimps and dolphins, that can't chuck spears, hunt by surrounding their prey. The only reason the hypothesis is even a thing is because people find it confusing that we sweat so much. If anything, the persistence running hypothesis in some way discredits the idea that hominids relied on rotten meat. If they could catch fresh prey, why eat spoiled meat? Yet our stomach acid has a very low pH, more acidic than even that of cats. What's more likely, in my opinion, is hominids began to supplement their diet by eating the leftover kills of larger predators as well as any rotting carcasses they may have encountered, and then developed hunting strategies around when they began developing tools. Even having sharp knives made of stone or volcanic glass would have been an obvious advantage in food procurement, and it wouldn't have taken millions of years to figure out that slashing an animal's throat in the right place would take it down quickly. No need for persistence running at all if a group can corner a mammoth or buffalo or lead it to a dead end.
- walkhour 4y ago
  > There are no contemporary examples of humans hunting that way. There are some examples [0], although admittedly they are isolated cases. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persistence_hunting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persistence_hunting
  - burkaman 4y ago
    This is an unusually poorly written Wikipedia article with a very weird style and a lot of unsourced statements. I would be very hesitant to trust it without extensively reading the sources.
  - mhb 4y ago
    Running After Antelope: Scott Carrier's story of trying for twelve years to chase down and catch an antelope by foot. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35362140 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35362140
nathanvanfleet 4y ago
My dog's propensity for diarrhea makes me feel less inclined to state that she has any tolerance for it.
- zdragnar 4y ago
  I've known dogs that have lived on very varied diets (including most human food sans poisons like grapes), and other dogs that had very strictly controlled diets because they were sensitive to pretty much anything and everything. Many breeds of modern dogs are very far removed from the lifestyle and habits of their wild brethren.
chrisco255 4y ago
I would disagree that meat had a short shelf life. It is almost trivial to dry meat out and make jerky that will last a very long time. Doesn't even require advanced tools. That being said, still agree with the premise. When you're truly hungry, food is food.
- OJFord 4y ago
  That is a 'controlled decomposition' preservation technique like GP described though.
hyperthesis 4y ago
What's the advantage to not being able to tolerate rotten meat? Perhaps it's costly to tolerate it. Apparently the advantage of losing body hair is fewer problems with lice (consider how much time other primates devote to grooming)
- nkrisc 4y ago
  There may be no advantage at all to not being able to tolerate. It may simply be there is no longer any advantage to being able to tolerate it, and thus no longer any pressure to select for the trait.
jonnycomputer 4y ago
I really don't think whether the prey is big-game or not matters with respect to "spoiled" meat, however, contra to what some others here are saying, persistence hunting is (or was) a real thing. This paper [1] describes ethnographic examples of persistence hunting; heck, my grandfather described to me running down rabbits as a way of hunting them. However, I would also argue that a more common approach, at least when there are multiple hunters working together, is to "herd" animals into kill zones such as pit traps, or channels. We have lots of evidence of those in the archeological record, such as here [2] and here [3]. I actually suspect that bacterial "preprocessing" of meat would assist in digestion. Rather famously, it is hard to get everything you need in a raw food diet, and a well known argument in anthropology is that cooking with fire is our way to make food easier to digest (rather than approach the problem the way, say, cows do). Fermentation can also improve the digestibility of foods (increasing bioavailability of calories, nutrients, etc.). [1] https://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/10.1086/508695 https://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/10.1086/508695 [2] https://albertashistoricplaces.com/2018/07/18/pronghorn-traps-on-the-northern-plains-of-alberta/ https://albertashistoricplaces.com/2018/07/18/pronghorn-trap... [3] https://torbygjordet.com/food/hunting/ https://torbygjordet.com/food/hunting/
- SubiculumCode 4y ago
  johnnycomputer knows his anthro. I attest.
RajT88 4y ago
> It's obvious that at least in our very recent evolutionary history we had far higher tolerance to spoilage. A few hours after reading this article, I realized that we're learning that exposure to peanut proteins at a certain age prevents peanut allergy. I wonder if eating rotten meat during formative years similarly confers resistance to the ill effects of such meats. Or more generally, develops our immune response enough to where it's not a problem. (Akin to people in developing nations not having a problem with the tap water)
a4000 4y ago
The Australian aboriginals in the Sydney area forbade meat during the hot months due to this reason. http://www.bom.gov.au/iwk/calendars/dharawal.shtml#burran http://www.bom.gov.au/iwk/calendars/dharawal.shtml#burran

by detuur 4y ago

vuln 4y ago

> It's obvious that at most in our very recent evolutionary history we had far higher tolerance to spoilage. I wonder what effect that’s had on a humans immune system. I’d imagine eating spoiled meat containing bacteria, etc was giving their immune system a run for its money until a tolerance was built.

zadler 4y ago
It might have been a good thing?
- zikduruqe 4y ago
  Just look up the Hadza tribe's gut microbiome. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/36238714/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/36238714/ https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms4654 https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms4654 That's probably as close as you are going to get to truly paleo diets... not paleo-bros that eat only bacon, butter and meats.
  - AlbertCory 4y ago
    I was going to post about "paleo" diets, but you beat me to it. The Paleo Cafe would get closed down by the Health Department real fast if it actually served paleo foods.
    - klyrs 4y ago
      I'm picturing a guy hauling a roadkill deer in, tossing it on a table and yelling "meat's up!" I mean, sure, they didn't have cars back then, but it's better than letting trash-eating deer meat go to waste.
      - AlbertCory 4y ago
        I dimly recall a New Yorker article about people who eat roadkill. They do have their limits though. It has to be fresh roadkill :)
        klyrs 4y ago
        New paleo motto: "Maggots is protein"
- vuln 4y ago
  I see how easy it would be for me at least to assume they had better immune systems from eating the spoiled meat. If true our modern immune systems are most likely way less effective than theirs at that time.
- rybosworld 4y ago
  There does seem to be this notion that being "too hygienic" is a negative thing because it doesn't train your immune system. That's only kind of true. Exposing a healthy person to small amounts of weakened virus tends to build immunity. Exposing the healthy person to large amounts of the virus overwhelms the immune system and may not even lead to a strong viral immunity. If I had to guess, eating rotten meat is something that indigenous peoples have adapted to over time (and some individuals died along the way to that adaptation) and they are resistant to the specific things in rotten meat that make modern day humans sick. I think it would be wrong to suggest the rotten meat eaters are somehow better off for doing this, or that they have stronger immune systems in general. Immune systems aren't like a muscle that you can repeatedly train to get stronger and stronger and stronger ad infinitum. Immunity also comes at a cost. This isn't talked about often. But it's not "Free" for your body to learn and maintain immunity to specific infections.
  - legulere 4y ago
    Especially in the last years, the hygiene hypothesis is not about a lack of immune training against harmful microbes, but a lack of encounter of so called old friends, harmless microbes. https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1700688114 https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1700688114
Retric 4y ago
The major issue isn’t the bacteria but their byproducts. Ex: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Botulism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Botulism This is why you can’t render rotten meat safe by simply cooking it. That said, people still age meat. Small birds for will get left for 4-9 days in a cool space before being butchered etc. https://magazine.outdoornebraska.gov/2014/01/hanging-pheasants-wild-fowl/ https://magazine.outdoornebraska.gov/2014/01/hanging-pheasan...
- giraffe_lady 4y ago
  Yep other than a couple notable exceptions like salmonella, this is the norm for food poisoning. It's intoxication from metabolic byproducts, not infection. Remains one of the biggest lay misunderstandings of food safety though. "Just cook it out" plus "your nose can tell" (it can't, spoilage microbes aren't usually illness microbes) are false beliefs that still get people killed.
  - foobarian 4y ago
    Curious about sources for this. I see some indication that botulism toxin can be destroyed by cooking, though the bar is pretty high - needs to be boiled over 5 minutes. So lesser temperature methods such as grilling the meat may not be sufficient, but something like stewing over many hours seems like would work fine.
    - giraffe_lady 4y ago
      I'm not gonna have a peer reviewed journal article for you or anything. I learned this in the food safety class you have to go through before managing a kitchen in a lot of jurisdictions. > stewing over many hours seems like would work fine. It won't! Good luck with it though.
      - foobarian 4y ago
        Well I get that would make sense in that kind of environment. Best way to not hurt your customers is to never even risk it - why would you? But my agenda is more selfish. I like to cold-smoke meats for adding to stews, based on the knowledge that stewing in > 85'C [1] water will destroy the botulism toxin. I could just stay away from cold-smoked meats to be safe; but then I would lose out on some of the tastiest food ever :-) It can be a confusing topic because there are 3 different things to worry about: the active bacteria, the spores, and the toxin. Of the 3, the spores are the most resistant to heat, and according to the WHO link [1] can survive multiple hours in boiling water. However the toxin seems relatively unstable. I really need to track down their sources though. [1] https://www.who.int/news-room/fact-sheets/detail/botulism https://www.who.int/news-room/fact-sheets/detail/botulism

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

leereeves 4y ago

> Dogs don't seem to mind [spoiled meat] I've recently seen proof of that. A dead horse was left on a trail I frequently hike, and I saw dogs eating it a week later. I don't even want to imagine how awful that meat was after sitting in the sun for a week.

SketchySeaBeast 4y ago
That said, all the pets I've had throw up way more than I do. I think we're ignoring the very real possibility that ancient people were constantly living with some level of gastrointestinal problems.
- mschuster91 4y ago
  > I think we're ignoring the very real possibility that ancient people were constantly living with some level of gastrointestinal problems. We do know that humanity from its earliest days over the Rome Empire [1] up to, what, maybe a century or even less ago has had massive infestations of all kinds of parasites, including gastrointestinal. Would it be possible that these parasites actually could have a symbiotic relationship, in helping to break down spoiled food? [1] https://www.livescience.com/53303-ancient-rome-infested-with-parasites.html https://www.livescience.com/53303-ancient-rome-infested-with...
- mrguyorama 4y ago
  I mean many modern people also live with constant gastrointestinal problems, and I'm not talking about teens eating taco bell and mountain dew every day and wondering why they have bathroom troubles, I'm talking about average people eating a varied and healthy diet with IBS.
  - SketchySeaBeast 4y ago
    You're not wrong and that's an excellent example. I'm questioning the idea that somehow people were able to consume this food impact-free. I struggle with the common narrative that somehow people were healthier and better in some dark forgotten past and we should return to those times for our own well being. There often seems to be promises that conditions like IBS would stop existing if we did that. But maybe ancient man was cool with having near-constantly runny poos because there was no alternative.

Joker_vD 4y ago

Not to mention diet of the peoples living in tundra that includes such wonderful stuff as e.g. igunaq.

eternalban 4y ago
Had to look that up. -- http://www.nmto.ca/sites/default/files/igunaq.pdf http://www.nmto.ca/sites/default/files/igunaq.pdf -- Igunaq-Aged meat Igunaq is fermented ( aged ) walrus or seal meat that has been cached away for future use. Meat is usually cached beneath stones or pebbles. Aged walrus meat is extremely high in protein, iron and vitamins. Igunaq has been traditional medicine to keep the digestive system clean, as it flushes away anything in its way. It is also great eating for those who have acquired the taste and can go beyond the smell. Too fermented, igunaq can be poisonous and can kill people. People have died from eating over-aged meat from walrus and polar bear. These two mammals are very rich in vitamins. The fat is often light green colored when the meat is aged properly. The fat will be darker green if the meat is over-aged or even brownish. Among Inuit it is a delicacy usually eaten with apples. To prepare the meat for eating people find that washing in cold water is better than washing with hot water. Cold water takes away the smell more. Igloolik and Hall Beach are known to have the best igunaq in Baffin Island. These two communities are blessed with walrus and proper gravel. Meat ages better when it is fermented in loose gravel. It takes time to make good igunaq. One has to store away the meat at the right season when it is not too hot or too cold. Temperature plays a big role. Cached meat is usually saved for the winter for people to eat but polar bears are known to steal the cache before people can claim them. Regardless the weight of the stones for caching, the polar bear will easily get at it. Polar bears are extremely strong animals. Common phrase...“ I wonder how many polar bears I have fed to date?” Meaning...Hoping that the cache is not eaten by polar bears yet. As noted igunaq is good for the digestive system as it cleans it completely of any foreign objects such as viruses and sickness a person may have. A person may experience a natural “high” if they have not eaten aged meat for a while. Men who grew up with igunaq are usually more physically muscular than those who have not. Igloolik, Hall Beach and Cape Dorset have muscular looking men compared to other communities on Baffin Island. It is believed that igunaq contributes to the physical appearance of the people who eat it. Igunaq is such a delicacy that people that have no access to it will fly it in from communities that do have good igunaq. Igunaq is often brought in at special occasions such as Christmas for community feasts. Some communities look forward to Inuit organizations having meetings in their communities...igunaq is surely to be part of the feast. Igunaq when on sale, will sell better than fresh meat. Interestingly due to its odor some airlines in the north will not carry igunaq. People often have to disguise it to get the aged meat on a plane to take them home. It is said that if you can get beyond the smell, you’ll enjoy the food as it is very nutritious and gives you energy and warmth....and you will be physically ready for your next outing. On a final note a full stomach will also make you concentrate better. Try it! It’s a true Northern experience! By Elijah Tigullaraq June 2008 -- end --

Connor_Creegan1 4y ago

>It's obvious that at least in our very recent evolutionary history we had far higher tolerance to spoilage. I would agree, both in terms of actual immunity and taste response, although generally-speaking eating rotten meat (especially when well-sourced) is not nearly as risky as common wisdom would make it out to be. Many folks in the deeper circles of online carnivoria dabble in "high meat" (fermented rotten meat, a method of preparing meat learned from Inuit peoples who would feed it to their dogs) and swear by it, even if the taste can be unbearable to the uninitiated.

finnh 4y ago
Where did I last read about high meat, again? Ah yes, the Nov 22, 2010 issue of the New Yorker: https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2010/11/22/natures-spoils https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2010/11/22/natures-spoils big h/t for "deeper circles of online carnivoria", you win phrase of the day
SketchySeaBeast 4y ago
Fermentation implies an intentional process that protects against spoilage. I don't think anyone considers sauerkraut or wine rotten food.
- Connor_Creegan1 4y ago
  Good point, although I think whether or not animal flesh is "spoiled" after spending weeks or months fermenting in a jar might depend on who you ask.
prottog 4y ago
> Many folks in the deeper circles of online carnivoria The wonders of the internet!
MayeulC 4y ago
It's still done in some French cuisine/hunting practices, though much less common nowadays: "Faisandage", where small game can be left to rot in a relatively controlled way for months: https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservation_de_la_viande#Maturation_et_faisandage https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservation_de_la_viande#Matu...

ravenstine 4y ago

Why subscribe to the endurance running hypothesis, though? There are no contemporary examples of humans hunting that way, and hominids were already making tools by the time they had developed to subsist on meat. The endurance/persistence hypothesis doesn't even make sense without tools like spears, knives, or arrows, because humans don't kill their prey by biting into them. If they had access to primitive weaponry, why would they waste energy running when they could instead ambush? Even other species like chimps and dolphins, that can't chuck spears, hunt by surrounding their prey. The only reason the hypothesis is even a thing is because people find it confusing that we sweat so much. If anything, the persistence running hypothesis in some way discredits the idea that hominids relied on rotten meat. If they could catch fresh prey, why eat spoiled meat? Yet our stomach acid has a very low pH, more acidic than even that of cats. What's more likely, in my opinion, is hominids began to supplement their diet by eating the leftover kills of larger predators as well as any rotting carcasses they may have encountered, and then developed hunting strategies around when they began developing tools. Even having sharp knives made of stone or volcanic glass would have been an obvious advantage in food procurement, and it wouldn't have taken millions of years to figure out that slashing an animal's throat in the right place would take it down quickly. No need for persistence running at all if a group can corner a mammoth or buffalo or lead it to a dead end.

walkhour 4y ago
> There are no contemporary examples of humans hunting that way. There are some examples [0], although admittedly they are isolated cases. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persistence_hunting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persistence_hunting
- burkaman 4y ago
  This is an unusually poorly written Wikipedia article with a very weird style and a lot of unsourced statements. I would be very hesitant to trust it without extensively reading the sources.
- mhb 4y ago
  Running After Antelope: Scott Carrier's story of trying for twelve years to chase down and catch an antelope by foot. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35362140 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35362140

nathanvanfleet 4y ago

My dog's propensity for diarrhea makes me feel less inclined to state that she has any tolerance for it.

zdragnar 4y ago
I've known dogs that have lived on very varied diets (including most human food sans poisons like grapes), and other dogs that had very strictly controlled diets because they were sensitive to pretty much anything and everything. Many breeds of modern dogs are very far removed from the lifestyle and habits of their wild brethren.

chrisco255 4y ago

I would disagree that meat had a short shelf life. It is almost trivial to dry meat out and make jerky that will last a very long time. Doesn't even require advanced tools. That being said, still agree with the premise. When you're truly hungry, food is food.

OJFord 4y ago
That is a 'controlled decomposition' preservation technique like GP described though.

hyperthesis 4y ago

What's the advantage to not being able to tolerate rotten meat? Perhaps it's costly to tolerate it. Apparently the advantage of losing body hair is fewer problems with lice (consider how much time other primates devote to grooming)

nkrisc 4y ago
There may be no advantage at all to not being able to tolerate. It may simply be there is no longer any advantage to being able to tolerate it, and thus no longer any pressure to select for the trait.

jonnycomputer 4y ago

I really don't think whether the prey is big-game or not matters with respect to "spoiled" meat, however, contra to what some others here are saying, persistence hunting is (or was) a real thing. This paper [1] describes ethnographic examples of persistence hunting; heck, my grandfather described to me running down rabbits as a way of hunting them. However, I would also argue that a more common approach, at least when there are multiple hunters working together, is to "herd" animals into kill zones such as pit traps, or channels. We have lots of evidence of those in the archeological record, such as here [2] and here [3]. I actually suspect that bacterial "preprocessing" of meat would assist in digestion. Rather famously, it is hard to get everything you need in a raw food diet, and a well known argument in anthropology is that cooking with fire is our way to make food easier to digest (rather than approach the problem the way, say, cows do). Fermentation can also improve the digestibility of foods (increasing bioavailability of calories, nutrients, etc.). [1] https://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/10.1086/508695 https://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/10.1086/508695 [2] https://albertashistoricplaces.com/2018/07/18/pronghorn-traps-on-the-northern-plains-of-alberta/ https://albertashistoricplaces.com/2018/07/18/pronghorn-trap... [3] https://torbygjordet.com/food/hunting/ https://torbygjordet.com/food/hunting/

SubiculumCode 4y ago
johnnycomputer knows his anthro. I attest.

RajT88 4y ago

> It's obvious that at least in our very recent evolutionary history we had far higher tolerance to spoilage. A few hours after reading this article, I realized that we're learning that exposure to peanut proteins at a certain age prevents peanut allergy. I wonder if eating rotten meat during formative years similarly confers resistance to the ill effects of such meats. Or more generally, develops our immune response enough to where it's not a problem. (Akin to people in developing nations not having a problem with the tap water)

a4000 4y ago

The Australian aboriginals in the Sydney area forbade meat during the hot months due to this reason. http://www.bom.gov.au/iwk/calendars/dharawal.shtml#burran http://www.bom.gov.au/iwk/calendars/dharawal.shtml#burran