4 ms·

Yeah, if you don't mind hugely increased start-up times, RAM usage and less curation and more crap, sure no need for package distribution. I personally do mind

Yeah, if you don't mind hugely increased start-up times, RAM usage and less curation and more crap, sure no need for package distribution. I personally do mind very much. Just the differences in startup times between apt and snap applications are huge and I would absolutely despise working with such a sluggish system. I would rather build everything myself from source if forced to.

vetinari 4y ago
That snap slowness is snap's problem, not general non-apt problem. Flatpak doesn't suffer from it.
Karunamon 4y ago
The mass proliferation of electron and other such webpages-as-desktop-applications would seem to indicate that the average user doesn't care for any of those things.
- cardanome 4y ago
  So much weird assumptions. First of all, there is no such thing as an average user. Also, it is not relevant to the discussion. I care about what I want in a system, not what some imaginary users want. Now, we could stop there but I will play: Electron solves a real problem for developers. Writing cross-platform GUI apps is a real pain. Yes, there are native solution but ensuring the user has the exact same experience on every platform tends to be orders of magnitude more costly compare to web based solutions. (That or they are exotic options like Lazarus with Free Pascal that have a much lower Developer pool.) Many apps wouldn't even have Linux ports if they were not written on Electron. Now, why do users accept them? Why are they not out-competed by native solution? Oh, honey. Why do I have Microsoft Teams installed? Because I like it? Hell, no! Because I need it for work. Why do I have the Discord Client? Because it is great? Nah, I long for good old IRC but Discord it there the people currently are. Did I think the Epic Games launcher is such an great app? Nah, they bought me with offering free games. Users tolerate shitty software for many reasons, mostly because they have to. It does not follow from that, that they don't mind software being shitty.
  - Karunamon 4y ago
    >First of all, there is no such thing as an average user. Also, it is not relevant to the discussion. I care about what I want in a system, not what some imaginary users want. In which case I hope you are prepared for software to get many times worse, because the software industry doesn't give a tuppeny fuck what you want in a system, they care what sells to the lowest common denominator. And that means slow, bloated electron web sites shoehorned into the desktop because the pool of mediocre JavaScript developers that can extrude a minimum viable product is huge compared to the pool of native developers of any language. And it will continue this way for as long as it's accepted. So, forever basically, because the average user you claim doesn't exist will put up with anything placed in front of them without significant enough complaint to impact profits.
    - cardanome 4y ago
      Debian packages are maintained by volunteers, the software industry has nothing to do with this.
      - Karunamon 4y ago
        Open source is part of the industry. You keep trying to hand wave this relatively straightforward point: users are already used to, and accepting of, slow and bloated applications. Therefore, the downsides that app containerization introduces are irrelevant to most people that will use them.
m4rtink 4y ago
Not to mention it introduces a single point of failure, that once compromised can start pushing malware directly to user. With maintainers in the loop, there is at least one more person that can notice something is fishy. Not to mention there is usually so time before packages are updated, so there is more time to notice an attack.
- AnIdiotOnTheNet 4y ago
  > With maintainers in the loop, there is at least one more person that can notice something is fishy Also one more person who can inject malware or break something. How did that Debian keygen issue happen again? Oh right.
  - bombolo 4y ago
    > How did that Debian keygen issue happen again? The people on the openssl mailing list said it was fine. That's how it happened.
    - AnIdiotOnTheNet 4y ago
      And yet the upstream developers themselves never incorporated the change, it was entirely because an unnecessary third party middle man made unnecessary changes.

vetinari 4y ago

That snap slowness is snap's problem, not general non-apt problem. Flatpak doesn't suffer from it.

Karunamon 4y ago

The mass proliferation of electron and other such webpages-as-desktop-applications would seem to indicate that the average user doesn't care for any of those things.

cardanome 4y ago
So much weird assumptions. First of all, there is no such thing as an average user. Also, it is not relevant to the discussion. I care about what I want in a system, not what some imaginary users want. Now, we could stop there but I will play: Electron solves a real problem for developers. Writing cross-platform GUI apps is a real pain. Yes, there are native solution but ensuring the user has the exact same experience on every platform tends to be orders of magnitude more costly compare to web based solutions. (That or they are exotic options like Lazarus with Free Pascal that have a much lower Developer pool.) Many apps wouldn't even have Linux ports if they were not written on Electron. Now, why do users accept them? Why are they not out-competed by native solution? Oh, honey. Why do I have Microsoft Teams installed? Because I like it? Hell, no! Because I need it for work. Why do I have the Discord Client? Because it is great? Nah, I long for good old IRC but Discord it there the people currently are. Did I think the Epic Games launcher is such an great app? Nah, they bought me with offering free games. Users tolerate shitty software for many reasons, mostly because they have to. It does not follow from that, that they don't mind software being shitty.
- Karunamon 4y ago
  >First of all, there is no such thing as an average user. Also, it is not relevant to the discussion. I care about what I want in a system, not what some imaginary users want. In which case I hope you are prepared for software to get many times worse, because the software industry doesn't give a tuppeny fuck what you want in a system, they care what sells to the lowest common denominator. And that means slow, bloated electron web sites shoehorned into the desktop because the pool of mediocre JavaScript developers that can extrude a minimum viable product is huge compared to the pool of native developers of any language. And it will continue this way for as long as it's accepted. So, forever basically, because the average user you claim doesn't exist will put up with anything placed in front of them without significant enough complaint to impact profits.
  - cardanome 4y ago
    Debian packages are maintained by volunteers, the software industry has nothing to do with this.
    - Karunamon 4y ago
      Open source is part of the industry. You keep trying to hand wave this relatively straightforward point: users are already used to, and accepting of, slow and bloated applications. Therefore, the downsides that app containerization introduces are irrelevant to most people that will use them.

m4rtink 4y ago

Not to mention it introduces a single point of failure, that once compromised can start pushing malware directly to user. With maintainers in the loop, there is at least one more person that can notice something is fishy. Not to mention there is usually so time before packages are updated, so there is more time to notice an attack.

AnIdiotOnTheNet 4y ago
> With maintainers in the loop, there is at least one more person that can notice something is fishy Also one more person who can inject malware or break something. How did that Debian keygen issue happen again? Oh right.
- bombolo 4y ago
  > How did that Debian keygen issue happen again? The people on the openssl mailing list said it was fine. That's how it happened.
  - AnIdiotOnTheNet 4y ago
    And yet the upstream developers themselves never incorporated the change, it was entirely because an unnecessary third party middle man made unnecessary changes.