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I agree. Maintainers are useless middlemen (at best) who only exist because of Linux userland's particular diseases and a desire for distros to rule over their

I agree. Maintainers are useless middlemen (at best) who only exist because of Linux userland's particular diseases and a desire for distros to rule over their own little repo fiefdoms. No other desktop OS has done it like Linux and for good reason. People have been citing this as a reason they don't want to use Linux as a desktop for decades to mostly deaf ears, who then turn around and wonder loudly why no one wants to use their OS. Hell, even Linus Torvalds himself complained about it.

simon_o 4y ago
This has to be the dumbest take on this thread. If you want the dystopian hellhole you seemingly long for, just use Android and enjoy the ad-infested crapware? No reason to moan about things you seemingly don't understand.
- deleted 4y ago
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Steltek 4y ago
I have no earthly idea what you are talking about. For decades, Linux package managers have been the killer app for Linux. They made installing and updating every single one of your applications trivial. You didn't google for sketchy download sites and unsigned exe's. You didn't have to fight the system to cleanly uninstall things. Even release upgrades were the smoothest thing ever. In 25 years, I've never had a Debian release upgrade go wrong. Anyone bitching about package managers as user hostile is a flat out idiot.
- AnIdiotOnTheNet 4y ago
  What's wrong isn't so much the package managers as the necessity for them and for an army of third party volunteers to maintain packages and all the problems that predictably arise from that. Linus famously complained about how things work at DebConf 14[0], but I guess he's an idiot for doing so? That's a pretty hot take but whatever. If a package is not in the repo? Sorry, you have to compile from source. Want a newer version? Compile from source and hope that the build environment dependencies are in the repo. Want an older version for some reason? Break out docker or KVM so you don't break your system. None of this is fundamental to the model, that much is true, but in practice it is how all Linux distributions using a package manager/repo model without things like Snap, AppImage, and Flatpak work. Here's the best part though: Even with Flatpaks and AppImage you can still use a repo! In fact Fedora Silverblue, which uses an immutable base system and installs everything through Flatpak and Toolbox, uses a Fedora controlled Flatpak repo by default. [0] http://saimei.ftp.acc.umu.se/pub/debian-meetings/2014/debconf14/webm/QA_with_Linus_Torvalds.webm http://saimei.ftp.acc.umu.se/pub/debian-meetings/2014/debcon...

simon_o 4y ago

This has to be the dumbest take on this thread. If you want the dystopian hellhole you seemingly long for, just use Android and enjoy the ad-infested crapware? No reason to moan about things you seemingly don't understand.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

Steltek 4y ago

I have no earthly idea what you are talking about. For decades, Linux package managers have been the killer app for Linux. They made installing and updating every single one of your applications trivial. You didn't google for sketchy download sites and unsigned exe's. You didn't have to fight the system to cleanly uninstall things. Even release upgrades were the smoothest thing ever. In 25 years, I've never had a Debian release upgrade go wrong. Anyone bitching about package managers as user hostile is a flat out idiot.

AnIdiotOnTheNet 4y ago
What's wrong isn't so much the package managers as the necessity for them and for an army of third party volunteers to maintain packages and all the problems that predictably arise from that. Linus famously complained about how things work at DebConf 14[0], but I guess he's an idiot for doing so? That's a pretty hot take but whatever. If a package is not in the repo? Sorry, you have to compile from source. Want a newer version? Compile from source and hope that the build environment dependencies are in the repo. Want an older version for some reason? Break out docker or KVM so you don't break your system. None of this is fundamental to the model, that much is true, but in practice it is how all Linux distributions using a package manager/repo model without things like Snap, AppImage, and Flatpak work. Here's the best part though: Even with Flatpaks and AppImage you can still use a repo! In fact Fedora Silverblue, which uses an immutable base system and installs everything through Flatpak and Toolbox, uses a Fedora controlled Flatpak repo by default. [0] http://saimei.ftp.acc.umu.se/pub/debian-meetings/2014/debconf14/webm/QA_with_Linus_Torvalds.webm http://saimei.ftp.acc.umu.se/pub/debian-meetings/2014/debcon...