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I remember my 4th grade teacher and I literally screaming at each other because when I wrote in cursive it hurt my hand, but school policy was all work had to b

I remember my 4th grade teacher and I literally screaming at each other because when I wrote in cursive it hurt my hand, but school policy was all work had to be in cursive.

wccrawford 4y ago
I remember my parents being upset at my awful handwriting (and yeah, it hurts my hand, too) and them making me practice a lot during the summer between 4th and 5th grade. My writing got worse. And then in 5th grade, one of the teachers decided that I needed more practice, and did the same thing. And guess what? I got even worse. It turns out that you can't actually force someone to write better, you can just cause them more pain.
- CharlieDigital 4y ago
  I'm a strong believer that we're not all wired the same way and thus we can't all learn the same way. Unfortunately, unless one is born with the resources to pursue a truly individualized education, our education system is designed to benefit the most number of students with the lowest cost to implement. A classroom with 12:1 student to teacher ratio will surely be more effective than a classroom with 24:1, but are you willing to increase your property taxes to hire 2x the number of teachers? Indeed, many students like yourself will not progress optimally in such a system, but perhaps until AI develops to the extent that we can have a fully individual educational experience that kids can actually adhere to (having seen my 4 year old on Zoom lessons, I think we're a ways off even if AI can build a personalized curricula), there will be students that cannot grow optimally under a "normalized" education system designed for mass efficiency,
  - PaulHoule 4y ago
    It would be cheap, however, to let kids opt out of painful activities. I was always happy to read a book and entertain myself as I was reading at an adult level at age 6. It's expensive, on the other hand, for the teacher to pick a fight about it.
    - CharlieDigital 4y ago
      You can't really develop fine motor skills and dexterity in your wrist and fingers from reading a book. They are two different types of neurological engagement. I hear you: not every child develops dexterity and control of their musculature at the same time and same pace. In fact, some people may have musculoskeletal structures that simply will not allow them to develop high levels of fine motor control. But our education system is designed to train as many students as practical with the least amount of cost.
everdrive 4y ago
Cursive has got to be the most annoying trend ever. It's not faster to write, it's not clearer to read. The introduced complexity has zero benefit whatsoever. It reminds me of one of those corporate presentations where they declare "science _proves_ that X system is better!" Except it's not better. It's just something that the people in charge prefer.
- mcphage 4y ago
  There have been articles on this site in the past about cursive—basically that it was better. When we wrote with fountain pens. Once we switched to ballpoint pens, it stopped being better.
  - falcolas 4y ago
    Ironically, writing with a stylus has many of the same issues as fountain pens, making cursive useful for writing on tablets. The issues I notice: the stylus must be lifted far off the screen to deregister the touch. It’s also bad at registering where a pen down motion touches the screen if it’s in motion. Cursive writing makes the results neater.
    - tomjen3 4y ago
      I haven't had issues with the deregistering on either of my iPads (both first and second generation pencil) but I did notice that I started to write in cursive. Which for whatever reason the iPad cannot recognize as text.
- CharlieDigital 4y ago
  The benefit is that it is an educational method that is cheap to administer, widely available, low risk of danger, and easy to grade if you are trying to train young students to improve their fine motor skills. Same with cutting shapes, posing toy figures, and applying glue. I have a 12 y/o and a 7 y/o and it's amazing to see their arts and crafts development over time as they develop their fine motor skills and dexterity through a variety of teaching methods. These fine motor skills are precursors to uplevel skills like touch typing. Why not start with touch typing? I couldn't train my daughter to touch type until her hands were big enough (around first grade, but still too small TBH). A 4 year old has an awful hard time using a mouse because they lack the motor controls to precisely manipulate with accuracy (I observed this first hand as my pre-schooler did virtual school during lockdowns -- we switched her to a touch device). How do you develop those neuromuscular pathways? Through seemingly useless and repetitive training like correctly holding a pencil or crayon, tracing letters with precision, cutting various shapes out of card stock, coloring within the lines, etc. Kids start with gross motor skills that use their whole limbs and then slowly build fine motor skills that involve complex wrist and finger movements through practice of various techniques. If you observe children with developmental disabilities, they have a hard time performing seemingly basic tasks like coloring within the lines. In many cases they cannot even "correctly" hold a crayon or pencil in a way that allows precise control. Their movements rely far more on gross motor skills because they cannot develop the neuro pathways required for fine control of their muscles [0]. Fine motor skills were perhaps more important in the days of manufacturing (e.g. sewing, parts assembly, wood working, metal smithing) and maybe why Asia seems to be particularly good at manufacturing and assembly of electronics. But I see such skills as still relevant today: touch typing, surgery, digital arts. Perhaps that's a contributing reason to why we don't seen as much precision manufacturing in the West even when cheap labor is available in Central and South America. [0] My spouse was a teacher for many years, transitioned into special education first as a learning disabilities teacher consultant and now as a special services supervisor.

I remember my 4th grade teacher and I literally screaming at each other because when I wrote in cursive it hurt my hand, but school policy was all work had to be in cursive.

wccrawford 4y ago

I remember my parents being upset at my awful handwriting (and yeah, it hurts my hand, too) and them making me practice a lot during the summer between 4th and 5th grade. My writing got worse. And then in 5th grade, one of the teachers decided that I needed more practice, and did the same thing. And guess what? I got even worse. It turns out that you can't actually force someone to write better, you can just cause them more pain.

CharlieDigital 4y ago
I'm a strong believer that we're not all wired the same way and thus we can't all learn the same way. Unfortunately, unless one is born with the resources to pursue a truly individualized education, our education system is designed to benefit the most number of students with the lowest cost to implement. A classroom with 12:1 student to teacher ratio will surely be more effective than a classroom with 24:1, but are you willing to increase your property taxes to hire 2x the number of teachers? Indeed, many students like yourself will not progress optimally in such a system, but perhaps until AI develops to the extent that we can have a fully individual educational experience that kids can actually adhere to (having seen my 4 year old on Zoom lessons, I think we're a ways off even if AI can build a personalized curricula), there will be students that cannot grow optimally under a "normalized" education system designed for mass efficiency,
- PaulHoule 4y ago
  It would be cheap, however, to let kids opt out of painful activities. I was always happy to read a book and entertain myself as I was reading at an adult level at age 6. It's expensive, on the other hand, for the teacher to pick a fight about it.
  - CharlieDigital 4y ago
    You can't really develop fine motor skills and dexterity in your wrist and fingers from reading a book. They are two different types of neurological engagement. I hear you: not every child develops dexterity and control of their musculature at the same time and same pace. In fact, some people may have musculoskeletal structures that simply will not allow them to develop high levels of fine motor control. But our education system is designed to train as many students as practical with the least amount of cost.

everdrive 4y ago

Cursive has got to be the most annoying trend ever. It's not faster to write, it's not clearer to read. The introduced complexity has zero benefit whatsoever. It reminds me of one of those corporate presentations where they declare "science _proves_ that X system is better!" Except it's not better. It's just something that the people in charge prefer.

mcphage 4y ago
There have been articles on this site in the past about cursive—basically that it was better. When we wrote with fountain pens. Once we switched to ballpoint pens, it stopped being better.
- falcolas 4y ago
  Ironically, writing with a stylus has many of the same issues as fountain pens, making cursive useful for writing on tablets. The issues I notice: the stylus must be lifted far off the screen to deregister the touch. It’s also bad at registering where a pen down motion touches the screen if it’s in motion. Cursive writing makes the results neater.
  - tomjen3 4y ago
    I haven't had issues with the deregistering on either of my iPads (both first and second generation pencil) but I did notice that I started to write in cursive. Which for whatever reason the iPad cannot recognize as text.
CharlieDigital 4y ago
The benefit is that it is an educational method that is cheap to administer, widely available, low risk of danger, and easy to grade if you are trying to train young students to improve their fine motor skills. Same with cutting shapes, posing toy figures, and applying glue. I have a 12 y/o and a 7 y/o and it's amazing to see their arts and crafts development over time as they develop their fine motor skills and dexterity through a variety of teaching methods. These fine motor skills are precursors to uplevel skills like touch typing. Why not start with touch typing? I couldn't train my daughter to touch type until her hands were big enough (around first grade, but still too small TBH). A 4 year old has an awful hard time using a mouse because they lack the motor controls to precisely manipulate with accuracy (I observed this first hand as my pre-schooler did virtual school during lockdowns -- we switched her to a touch device). How do you develop those neuromuscular pathways? Through seemingly useless and repetitive training like correctly holding a pencil or crayon, tracing letters with precision, cutting various shapes out of card stock, coloring within the lines, etc. Kids start with gross motor skills that use their whole limbs and then slowly build fine motor skills that involve complex wrist and finger movements through practice of various techniques. If you observe children with developmental disabilities, they have a hard time performing seemingly basic tasks like coloring within the lines. In many cases they cannot even "correctly" hold a crayon or pencil in a way that allows precise control. Their movements rely far more on gross motor skills because they cannot develop the neuro pathways required for fine control of their muscles [0]. Fine motor skills were perhaps more important in the days of manufacturing (e.g. sewing, parts assembly, wood working, metal smithing) and maybe why Asia seems to be particularly good at manufacturing and assembly of electronics. But I see such skills as still relevant today: touch typing, surgery, digital arts. Perhaps that's a contributing reason to why we don't seen as much precision manufacturing in the West even when cheap labor is available in Central and South America. [0] My spouse was a teacher for many years, transitioned into special education first as a learning disabilities teacher consultant and now as a special services supervisor.