6 ms·

Periodic reminder: if you plan on using Linux, before buying any laptop, always check the Arch Linux wiki first. I don't even run Arch, but in my experience, t

by stncls 4y ago

Periodic reminder: if you plan on using Linux, before buying any laptop, always check the Arch Linux wiki first. I don't even run Arch, but in my experience, the Arch wikis for hardware support are amazing: complete, accurate, and to the point. For laptops, they start with a small table indicating what works and what does not. Then concise but precise explanations of the pain points. And whenever a fix exists, it is explained in a way that will make it work not only on Arch, but often also on other distros. Take this very laptop for example, the X1 Carbon Gen10. The Arch wiki entry [1] has all the information found in the OP, but it cuts right to the point without any fluff. And then it adds technical explanations and workarounds. [1] https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Lenovo_ThinkPad_X1_Carbon_(Gen_10) https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Lenovo_ThinkPad_X1_Carbon_(...

ChuckNorris89 4y ago
Another periodic reminder: Whenever you buy a new laptop don't just nuke the Windows install that comes out of the box and go directly to installing Linux, but boot into it first and let Windows Update install all firmware updates as those updates might not be available under Linux.
- davidy123 4y ago
  Linux supports firmware updates via fwupd. It's integrated into most distros.
  - stncls 4y ago
    Both you and GP are right, depending on the laptop manufacturer. Like you, I personally nuke Windows immediately and run fwupd from Linux... but then... I'm lucky I get to choose my own laptops. And I only buy those whose manufacturers support fwupd. It's a growing number, but I don't think it's a majority...? I'm not sure, I would be happy if anyone had hard data here.
  - ChuckNorris89 4y ago
    Read my comment again please. Slowly and carefully. Especially this part: >those updates might not be available under Linux Just because FWUPD exists, doesn't mean that FWUPD has updates for all laptops or HW devices in your laptop. All HW manufacturers ship Windows drivers and FW updates for Windows, but not all push their updates to fwupd as well. That's why you should use Windows to update everything first especially if you don't know if your devices are supported by fwupd.
    - trelane 4y ago
      Why would you buy a laptop that you cannot install updates on without jumping though hoops?
      - nordsieck 4y ago
        > Why would you buy a laptop that you cannot install updates on without jumping though hoops? Maybe you're buying used and you can get a great deal that just has that one drawback.
        trelane 4y ago
        That's fair. Also, not everyone can pay the premiums due to having a much smaller market either, I suppose. Too bad many that can don't. There's no way for the little players to achieve economies of scale of the big players if folks keep buying Windows hardware from the big players.
      - sigzero 4y ago
        No idea but people in fact do that.
      - elteto 4y ago
        Simple, because for running Linux there are not that many options. And the X1 Carbon is very nice hardware. Also, with that mentality, we would never extend Linux support to new hardware.
- dTal 4y ago
  I find the pragmatic, if ideologically galling, choice is to leave Windows around permanently, shrinking its partition as small as it will go. This preserves the ability to run any vendor-supplied utilities in perpetuity, as well as leaving the door open to reliably run some Windows software in a life-or-death situation.
  - bluedino 4y ago
    I've had Windows 10 run certain (major?) updates that fubar the boot record or something because they ruin my dual-boot Linux install.
    - jhickok 4y ago
      This has been my experience as well.
    - dTal 4y ago
      Automatically, on boot? That's rather naughty. I've never encountered this but I boot into Windows with a frequency approaching "never", and I would certainly never intentionally permit it to install updates. I would be so livid if it wrecked my boot sequence without user interaction.
    - beardbound 4y ago
      If you use the windows boot record as the parent boot instead of grub you can mostly get around this issue. It’s what I did on my gaming rig. I mostly use that as a development machine these days, but occasionally boot into windows for games.
- lproven 4y ago
  > let Windows Update install all firmware updates I did in fact say that in the article. (I wrote the story at the top of this post.)
  - ChuckNorris89 4y ago
    I know mate, I wasn't trying to steal your thunder. I was happy to finally see someone else cover this important first step of using Windows to get your FW updated so that you ensure smooth Linux experience after install, and wanted to emphasize, from personal experience, how important this step is to having a good linux experience after install.
    - lproven 4y ago
      OK, fair enough. You're right, it is important, and no, people don't talk about it as often as it deserves.
- teepo 4y ago
  This also holds true for pesky things like displaylink, docs, USB hubs that may need a firmware update to resolve issues with linux. Also I think some Lenovo laptops need an update to Intel ME, which for a long time and depending on your hw was only packaged as a Windows .exe
  - dizhn 4y ago
    I used a bootable windows iso thingy the last time this was an issue for me.
    - dizhn 4y ago
      This one: https://archive.org/details/win-7-pe https://archive.org/details/win-7-pe
- windexh8er 4y ago
  I tell friends to do a bit of digging which includes looking at what's supported but also being keen to support vendors, and the models they sell, that are supported under LVFS [0]. Booting Windows, for anything, if Linux is your daily driver is a PitA. Otherwise there's always Rufus [1] and booting into a DoS environment for firmware updates (if supported) and I believe there's still potentially ways to get "Windows to Go" working still with older Windows versions. [0] https://fwupd.org/ https://fwupd.org/ [1] http://rufus.ie/ http://rufus.ie/
- donio 4y ago
  Nope, Windows goes during partitioning, I'm not going to boot into that stuff even once. If I bought the laptop it's because I did my research and I am confident that I will be able to fully manage it from Linux.
  - ChuckNorris89 4y ago
    I don't get what you were trying to add here besides things that have already bee said. If you did your research and made sure to buy linux supported hardware, then good for you mate, you're free to do whatever you want now, but for us with less linux friendly hardware or unknown to the user, my point still stands, you should first update everything under windows (including usb-c/thunderbolt docking station FW) to ensure a good linux experience later.
  - bastard_op 4y ago
    I keep the windoze partition on my thinkpad if nothing else to update the thunderbolt 4 dock firmware, as the TB3 dock just finally got fwupd support within the last few days and no telling if/when the TB4 will. It's an important part of my use, and was and is quite quirky under linux since I got it that has improved with firmware updates. I just resize it down to like 100gb that windoze can keep itself and the lenovo hardware updated when needed with their eazy button app native to their build, and build anything linux after.
  - raffraffraff 4y ago
    If I hadn't booted my laptop into Windows (once, to updated the bios), Linux wouldn't have had working audio. And updating the bus from Linux can be a massive pain in the ass, depending on the vendor.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- lhl 4y ago
  One nice thing about Lenovo's business line is they fully support LVFS for easy firmware updates via Linux. Here's their system updates for the X1 Carbon g10 for example: https://fwupd.org/lvfs/devices/com.lenovo.ThinkPadN3AETXXW.firmware https://fwupd.org/lvfs/devices/com.lenovo.ThinkPadN3AETXXW.f... System76 supports LVFS and Framework has started using it for its latest beta firmware updates. (for a full list of vendors: https://fwupd.org/lvfs/vendors/ https://fwupd.org/lvfs/vendors/ )
- raffraffraff 4y ago
  Oh definitely! This is a top tip!
- pizza234 4y ago
  An alternative is to create a Windows to Go flash key, and perform periodic updates from there.
mablopoule 4y ago
Thank you so much for the reminder. I actually plan on buying a X1 Carbon Gen10 in the following weeks, and use Arch as my daily driver, and yet I didn't think of checking the (honestly amazing) ArchWiki.
- hyperpl 4y ago
  I have the X1 Carbon Gen9 and I've used Arch as my daily driver for over 15 years I think it is now. Just want to mention in case it piqued your interest that I recently moved from Arch to NixOS on my X1C9 to help bake my whole system into a set of functional configs. It's particularly nice that I was able to functionally describe my whole system including packages, quirks, patches, configs (system + dotfiles) in a reproducible way. Also I think you'll love the machine - it's certainly my favorite Linux laptop.
trelane 4y ago
Or, better, buy a computer with Linux preinstalled and with support. Then, of there's a problem, you can support and get it sorted.
- horsawlarway 4y ago
  Honestly - As a long time user I think you're much better off checking the Arch wiki first. It will reflect the reality of the situation for that specific set of hardware. The vendor is going to give you a sales pitch. And I say this as someone who has gone out of my way to buy hardware from vendors that officially support linux (Dell & Lenovo). In many cases - the most official support you'll get is "This is a known issue, we are working on it."
  - trelane 4y ago
    can you call Dell and Lenovo and expect support as a Linux user? Or do you still have to put Windows back on before they give you the time of day?
    - horsawlarway 4y ago
      Yes, as long as you've purchased a machine that they offer with a linux distro pre-installed, or that they've certified (ex: Dell only ships Ubuntu but will certify hardware for Redhat compatibility). Ex: https://www.dell.com/en-us/lp/linux-systems https://www.dell.com/en-us/lp/linux-systems I used an XPS 13 developer edition for quite a while. Great little machine, but a couple of known issues around wifi/bluetooth and the fingerprint reader. Fixable, and Dell actually did provide drivers in a deb for Ubuntu, but it took them a little while. But generally speaking, yes you can call - they will provide resources and point you at fixes they've implemented, but it's still a bit of a grab bag. I would definitely not buy a linux machine from them without checking the Arch wiki first. Ex: The current developer machine shipping from Dells link is here: https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Dell_XPS_13_Plus_(9320) https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Dell_XPS_13_Plus_(9320) Mostly fine across the board - some known issues with very recent kernel versions, and some problems with the webcam. Dell fixed the webcam issues in their default Ubuntu release, but it requires manual fixing on other distros.
thomastjeffery 4y ago
The only place I have found better documentation is the Gentoo wiki: https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Main_Page https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Main_Page The Gentoo wiki illustrates to me that Linux is about constructive solutions, not crowd sourced testing. If I have a Windows problem, I Google for the magic incantation that was inferred by a thousand desperate disparate voices. If I have a Linux problem, I learn about the components I am using, and how they are intended to behave and fit together.
wdfx 4y ago
Thanks for the advice, I've just been able to resolve the trackpad issue on my XPS 9510 that's been driving me mad for over 1 year.
lhl 4y ago
I'm always surprised on r/linuxhardware (another good resource) the number of people that ask questions without doing basic searches online. I'd definitely second the Arch and Gentoo Wikis as excellent community maintained resources. Also: * https://linux-hardware.org/ https://linux-hardware.org/ - this is where uploaded `hw-probe` results are collected and shared. It's easy to search for your exact model #/SKU and get a very detailed compatibility list, eg: https://linux-hardware.org/?probe=6677ca6be8 https://linux-hardware.org/?probe=6677ca6be8 * Reddit is actually one of the best general sources for people talking about Linux compatibility issues, especially as most laptop OEMs don't have dedicated Linux support forums (only Framework and Lenovo do, AFAIK), so searching for "[model] linux report/review/compatibility/issues reddit" is usually a good sanity check as well. * Oftentimes doing a search for the exact model and adding "linux bug" is the best way to get any bug reports that are in kernel, distro, or package trackers. * IMO Notebookcheck is the best general/objective review site for laptops. While there are usually some more in-depth reviews that might give additional color on a laptop, the Notebookcheck reviews cover most of the important points with some very objective, and more importantly, standardized tests, whose results can be compared against their gigantic database of other reviews. Important things like screen quality (brightness, color gamut, PWM flicker), speaker quality (I find the percentile vs other laptops most useful there), and power usage (most importantly IMO, their WiFi v1.3 rundown test). While it's not the easiest to link to, they allow you to add comparisons to arbitrary laptop models for any of their numerical results. It's fantastic. * Lastly, for Linux laptop compatibility in particular, I've found there a lot of documents in single developer/user's wikis, or as Github repos/gists writing up their experiences. I've done two of them myself since I found the other ones I've found to be so useful: https://github.com/lhl/linuxlaptops https://github.com/lhl/linuxlaptops
- JustSomeNobody 4y ago
  > I'm always surprised on r/linuxhardware (another good resource) the number of people that ask questions without doing basic searches online. This is a problem with reddit in general. For example, some variation of "how do I reduce System Data in iOS" has been asked 37,000 times. All one has to do is search. But redditors don't search.

by stncls 4y ago

ChuckNorris89 4y ago

Another periodic reminder: Whenever you buy a new laptop don't just nuke the Windows install that comes out of the box and go directly to installing Linux, but boot into it first and let Windows Update install all firmware updates as those updates might not be available under Linux.

davidy123 4y ago
Linux supports firmware updates via fwupd. It's integrated into most distros.
- stncls 4y ago
  Both you and GP are right, depending on the laptop manufacturer. Like you, I personally nuke Windows immediately and run fwupd from Linux... but then... I'm lucky I get to choose my own laptops. And I only buy those whose manufacturers support fwupd. It's a growing number, but I don't think it's a majority...? I'm not sure, I would be happy if anyone had hard data here.
- ChuckNorris89 4y ago
  Read my comment again please. Slowly and carefully. Especially this part: >those updates might not be available under Linux Just because FWUPD exists, doesn't mean that FWUPD has updates for all laptops or HW devices in your laptop. All HW manufacturers ship Windows drivers and FW updates for Windows, but not all push their updates to fwupd as well. That's why you should use Windows to update everything first especially if you don't know if your devices are supported by fwupd.
  - trelane 4y ago
    Why would you buy a laptop that you cannot install updates on without jumping though hoops?
    - nordsieck 4y ago
      > Why would you buy a laptop that you cannot install updates on without jumping though hoops? Maybe you're buying used and you can get a great deal that just has that one drawback.
      - trelane 4y ago
        That's fair. Also, not everyone can pay the premiums due to having a much smaller market either, I suppose. Too bad many that can don't. There's no way for the little players to achieve economies of scale of the big players if folks keep buying Windows hardware from the big players.
    - sigzero 4y ago
      No idea but people in fact do that.
    - elteto 4y ago
      Simple, because for running Linux there are not that many options. And the X1 Carbon is very nice hardware. Also, with that mentality, we would never extend Linux support to new hardware.
dTal 4y ago
I find the pragmatic, if ideologically galling, choice is to leave Windows around permanently, shrinking its partition as small as it will go. This preserves the ability to run any vendor-supplied utilities in perpetuity, as well as leaving the door open to reliably run some Windows software in a life-or-death situation.
- bluedino 4y ago
  I've had Windows 10 run certain (major?) updates that fubar the boot record or something because they ruin my dual-boot Linux install.
  - jhickok 4y ago
    This has been my experience as well.
  - dTal 4y ago
    Automatically, on boot? That's rather naughty. I've never encountered this but I boot into Windows with a frequency approaching "never", and I would certainly never intentionally permit it to install updates. I would be so livid if it wrecked my boot sequence without user interaction.
  - beardbound 4y ago
    If you use the windows boot record as the parent boot instead of grub you can mostly get around this issue. It’s what I did on my gaming rig. I mostly use that as a development machine these days, but occasionally boot into windows for games.
lproven 4y ago
> let Windows Update install all firmware updates I did in fact say that in the article. (I wrote the story at the top of this post.)
- ChuckNorris89 4y ago
  I know mate, I wasn't trying to steal your thunder. I was happy to finally see someone else cover this important first step of using Windows to get your FW updated so that you ensure smooth Linux experience after install, and wanted to emphasize, from personal experience, how important this step is to having a good linux experience after install.
  - lproven 4y ago
    OK, fair enough. You're right, it is important, and no, people don't talk about it as often as it deserves.
teepo 4y ago
This also holds true for pesky things like displaylink, docs, USB hubs that may need a firmware update to resolve issues with linux. Also I think some Lenovo laptops need an update to Intel ME, which for a long time and depending on your hw was only packaged as a Windows .exe
- dizhn 4y ago
  I used a bootable windows iso thingy the last time this was an issue for me.
  - dizhn 4y ago
    This one: https://archive.org/details/win-7-pe https://archive.org/details/win-7-pe
windexh8er 4y ago
I tell friends to do a bit of digging which includes looking at what's supported but also being keen to support vendors, and the models they sell, that are supported under LVFS [0]. Booting Windows, for anything, if Linux is your daily driver is a PitA. Otherwise there's always Rufus [1] and booting into a DoS environment for firmware updates (if supported) and I believe there's still potentially ways to get "Windows to Go" working still with older Windows versions. [0] https://fwupd.org/ https://fwupd.org/ [1] http://rufus.ie/ http://rufus.ie/
donio 4y ago
Nope, Windows goes during partitioning, I'm not going to boot into that stuff even once. If I bought the laptop it's because I did my research and I am confident that I will be able to fully manage it from Linux.
- ChuckNorris89 4y ago
  I don't get what you were trying to add here besides things that have already bee said. If you did your research and made sure to buy linux supported hardware, then good for you mate, you're free to do whatever you want now, but for us with less linux friendly hardware or unknown to the user, my point still stands, you should first update everything under windows (including usb-c/thunderbolt docking station FW) to ensure a good linux experience later.
- bastard_op 4y ago
  I keep the windoze partition on my thinkpad if nothing else to update the thunderbolt 4 dock firmware, as the TB3 dock just finally got fwupd support within the last few days and no telling if/when the TB4 will. It's an important part of my use, and was and is quite quirky under linux since I got it that has improved with firmware updates. I just resize it down to like 100gb that windoze can keep itself and the lenovo hardware updated when needed with their eazy button app native to their build, and build anything linux after.
- raffraffraff 4y ago
  If I hadn't booted my laptop into Windows (once, to updated the bios), Linux wouldn't have had working audio. And updating the bus from Linux can be a massive pain in the ass, depending on the vendor.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
lhl 4y ago
One nice thing about Lenovo's business line is they fully support LVFS for easy firmware updates via Linux. Here's their system updates for the X1 Carbon g10 for example: https://fwupd.org/lvfs/devices/com.lenovo.ThinkPadN3AETXXW.firmware https://fwupd.org/lvfs/devices/com.lenovo.ThinkPadN3AETXXW.f... System76 supports LVFS and Framework has started using it for its latest beta firmware updates. (for a full list of vendors: https://fwupd.org/lvfs/vendors/ https://fwupd.org/lvfs/vendors/ )
raffraffraff 4y ago
Oh definitely! This is a top tip!
pizza234 4y ago
An alternative is to create a Windows to Go flash key, and perform periodic updates from there.

mablopoule 4y ago

Thank you so much for the reminder. I actually plan on buying a X1 Carbon Gen10 in the following weeks, and use Arch as my daily driver, and yet I didn't think of checking the (honestly amazing) ArchWiki.

hyperpl 4y ago
I have the X1 Carbon Gen9 and I've used Arch as my daily driver for over 15 years I think it is now. Just want to mention in case it piqued your interest that I recently moved from Arch to NixOS on my X1C9 to help bake my whole system into a set of functional configs. It's particularly nice that I was able to functionally describe my whole system including packages, quirks, patches, configs (system + dotfiles) in a reproducible way. Also I think you'll love the machine - it's certainly my favorite Linux laptop.

trelane 4y ago

Or, better, buy a computer with Linux preinstalled and with support. Then, of there's a problem, you can support and get it sorted.

horsawlarway 4y ago
Honestly - As a long time user I think you're much better off checking the Arch wiki first. It will reflect the reality of the situation for that specific set of hardware. The vendor is going to give you a sales pitch. And I say this as someone who has gone out of my way to buy hardware from vendors that officially support linux (Dell & Lenovo). In many cases - the most official support you'll get is "This is a known issue, we are working on it."
- trelane 4y ago
  can you call Dell and Lenovo and expect support as a Linux user? Or do you still have to put Windows back on before they give you the time of day?
  - horsawlarway 4y ago
    Yes, as long as you've purchased a machine that they offer with a linux distro pre-installed, or that they've certified (ex: Dell only ships Ubuntu but will certify hardware for Redhat compatibility). Ex: https://www.dell.com/en-us/lp/linux-systems https://www.dell.com/en-us/lp/linux-systems I used an XPS 13 developer edition for quite a while. Great little machine, but a couple of known issues around wifi/bluetooth and the fingerprint reader. Fixable, and Dell actually did provide drivers in a deb for Ubuntu, but it took them a little while. But generally speaking, yes you can call - they will provide resources and point you at fixes they've implemented, but it's still a bit of a grab bag. I would definitely not buy a linux machine from them without checking the Arch wiki first. Ex: The current developer machine shipping from Dells link is here: https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Dell_XPS_13_Plus_(9320) https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Dell_XPS_13_Plus_(9320) Mostly fine across the board - some known issues with very recent kernel versions, and some problems with the webcam. Dell fixed the webcam issues in their default Ubuntu release, but it requires manual fixing on other distros.

thomastjeffery 4y ago

The only place I have found better documentation is the Gentoo wiki: https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Main_Page https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Main_Page The Gentoo wiki illustrates to me that Linux is about constructive solutions, not crowd sourced testing. If I have a Windows problem, I Google for the magic incantation that was inferred by a thousand desperate disparate voices. If I have a Linux problem, I learn about the components I am using, and how they are intended to behave and fit together.

wdfx 4y ago

Thanks for the advice, I've just been able to resolve the trackpad issue on my XPS 9510 that's been driving me mad for over 1 year.

lhl 4y ago

I'm always surprised on r/linuxhardware (another good resource) the number of people that ask questions without doing basic searches online. I'd definitely second the Arch and Gentoo Wikis as excellent community maintained resources. Also: * https://linux-hardware.org/ https://linux-hardware.org/ - this is where uploaded `hw-probe` results are collected and shared. It's easy to search for your exact model #/SKU and get a very detailed compatibility list, eg: https://linux-hardware.org/?probe=6677ca6be8 https://linux-hardware.org/?probe=6677ca6be8 * Reddit is actually one of the best general sources for people talking about Linux compatibility issues, especially as most laptop OEMs don't have dedicated Linux support forums (only Framework and Lenovo do, AFAIK), so searching for "[model] linux report/review/compatibility/issues reddit" is usually a good sanity check as well. * Oftentimes doing a search for the exact model and adding "linux bug" is the best way to get any bug reports that are in kernel, distro, or package trackers. * IMO Notebookcheck is the best general/objective review site for laptops. While there are usually some more in-depth reviews that might give additional color on a laptop, the Notebookcheck reviews cover most of the important points with some very objective, and more importantly, standardized tests, whose results can be compared against their gigantic database of other reviews. Important things like screen quality (brightness, color gamut, PWM flicker), speaker quality (I find the percentile vs other laptops most useful there), and power usage (most importantly IMO, their WiFi v1.3 rundown test). While it's not the easiest to link to, they allow you to add comparisons to arbitrary laptop models for any of their numerical results. It's fantastic. * Lastly, for Linux laptop compatibility in particular, I've found there a lot of documents in single developer/user's wikis, or as Github repos/gists writing up their experiences. I've done two of them myself since I found the other ones I've found to be so useful: https://github.com/lhl/linuxlaptops https://github.com/lhl/linuxlaptops

JustSomeNobody 4y ago
> I'm always surprised on r/linuxhardware (another good resource) the number of people that ask questions without doing basic searches online. This is a problem with reddit in general. For example, some variation of "how do I reduce System Data in iOS" has been asked 37,000 times. All one has to do is search. But redditors don't search.