4 ms·

This puts too much unnecessary burden on developers and maintainers. It doesn't make sense to adapt software to tens of distributions (and then to different OS

This puts too much unnecessary burden on developers and maintainers. It doesn't make sense to adapt software to tens of distributions (and then to different OS like FreeBSD). Apt should be used only for system software (like init system, system libraries) but not for applications. Also apt allows to run scripts as root during installation and this is not secure.

DocTomoe 4y ago
Snaps/Flatpacks/other binary-containerised stuff is one of the major reasons why I abandoned Linux distributions after 22-odd years (1999-2022), and am now a happy Apple user (the other one being abandoning X11 in favour of Wayland, and a switch to laptop-first usage, on which Linux still has horrible power-consumption). Linux distros have a history of abandoning useful, well-understood technology for fads that then cause power users all kinds of headaches later-on (e.g. by cluttering output of useful tools like mount). Eventually, power users just lose the will to adapt, and move on. Could I have just switched distros, or compiled my own stuff? Sure. But I am no longer a student. I am become a mid-40s guy who is becoming aware his lifetime is not unlimited and can be spent better than learning the ropes of a new system. In the time of Jenkins et al the burden of creating bistro-specific packages is negligible.
- evol262 4y ago
  > Snaps/Flatpacks/other binary-containerised stuff is one of the major reasons why I abandoned Linux distributions after 22-odd years (1999-2022), and am now a happy Apple user (the other one being abandoning X11 in favour of Wayland, and a switch to laptop-first usage, on which Linux still has horrible power-consumption). Flatpaks/Snaps are almost exactly the same, conceptually, as apps on MacOS. Go look inside something in /Applications/... The .app is a folder, with all of its deps. > Linux distros have a history of abandoning useful, well-understood technology for fads that then cause power users all kinds of headaches later-on (e.g. by cluttering output of useful tools like mount). Eventually, power users just lose the will to adapt, and move on. "Power users" have a history of complaining about distro maintainers abandoning useful, well-understood techology because the "power users" don't actually understand the technology, nor do the understand the enormous headaches it causes distro maintainers to put a sane face on 30 year old design philosophies and continue moving forward. The goal of distro maintainers is to STOP investing endless man hours in trying to make X work with high DPI displays, scaling, high refresh rates, a fundamentally insecure design model, and so on. The goal of systemd is/was for distro maintainers to STOP wasting endless man hours on edge cases because sysvinit didn't have reasonable mechanisms for "if anything in this dependency chain is restarted or changed, re-evaluate it" or "don't try to start this service if the mount isn't available so systems stop hanging on startup if some NFS server isn't available" or whatever. > In the time of Jenkins et al the burden of creating bistro-specific packages is negligible. Under the assumption that they are ABI stable, which is a bad one. Otherwise, it's the same old kaleidoscope of mapping out whether it's `libfoo-dev`, `libfoo-devel` for build requirements, whether it's a distro with a completely different naming system, dissecting the ELF header or reversing depchains in Python/Node/whatever to try to find deps and what THOSE are named in some distro, or whether they're even packaged at all, then building for every possible supported version of RHEL, Debian, Ubuntu, Fedora, SuSE, and down the line. This is why "power users" aren't an important user model. Arch, Gentoo, Nix, and others exist if you want to be a "power user". Otherwise, extremely naive assumptions about the amount of effort expended by distro/package maintainers hand-wave the complexity away with "duh, just put it in Jenkins." Flatpak/Snap are essentially a re-invention of putting things in /opt and using LD_LIBRARY_PATH or chrooting. Disk space is much less of a concern than it was before, and sacrificing a little space to AVOID the mess of shit above is a good investment.
  - tinus_hn 4y ago
    Mac and iPhone apps don’t automatically update unless you tell them to. The goal of systemd is to make everyone do everything the way Lennart Poettering likes it on his personal laptop. Perhaps some of it is nice but also some of it is not nice. And his holier and smarter than thou attitude is off putting and rightly so. And don’t handwave away wasting my resources just so you can avoid work. That’s how we end up with Microsoft Teams.
    - evol262 4y ago
      The goal of systemd as an *init system* is not the same thing as the goal of some of the systemd umbrella projects, and they shouldn't be conflated. systemd as an init system is leaps and bounds ahead of sysvinit, openrc, and upstart for distro maintainers, large scale sysadmins, etc. No more need for supervisord, random scripts to flag off and on was part of VPN connection, convoluted "meta" scripts which carefully restart 5 different services in the same order and a huge mess of shell. That said, no, Lennart did not/does not do things that way on his personal laptop. His position is that users shouldn't need to know how to configure dnsmasq to have a local caching DNS server, that 99% of the options for dhcpcd aren't used by 99% of users (who are perfectly happy to simply get an address in a fraction of the time), that most users don't need to know how to configure /etc/sysconfig/network-scripts/ifcfg-* or /etc/network/interfaces/* for their use case. If you do, you can disable those things. You can think this is a good opinion or a bad opinion, but at least he's pushing towards some kind of solution which isn't "RTFM". If you think his ideas are bad, propose new ones. Start a project which does it better. "Just don't change anything" is not a meaningful or productive way to design software or operating systems.
      - tinus_hn 4y ago
        Some interesting gaslighting here, complaints about the forced systemd ecosystem can be deflected by pointing at the init system. Which, just like the rest of the ecosystem, improves some parts and deteriorates others like the absolutely worthless journaling log replacement. Anyway I’m not about to engage the systemd evangelization task force, thanks. Good luck elsewhere.
sergiosgc 4y ago
There's a Pareto effort, of course. If you release Debian and Redhat packages, you cover 80% of the user base. It's not hard to maintain, if you compare to building msi installers. Further, the process of generating packages for derivatives of debian or redhat can be mostly automated, so user coverage is bound to grow if your package is popular. As for root requirements, what you are asking for are (non privileged) user installable packages. Packages that install only to the user account. This feature doesn't exist, but it'd be a much saner approach than snap/flatpak.
- bogwog 4y ago
  I go to cool app website, I click download, I get a '.deb' file, I click .deb file, it opens some installer GUI (instead of Ark because I'm lucky today), I click install, I get error, I google error, I find cryptic commands that modify my system in weird ways just to get the app to install, I install app, I open app, it crashes, I open firefox, I get error "error: libX.so.1.2 not found", I can no longer google the error. The system package manager is convenient when it works, because it's already there. But that's about it. Using it to install any random apps is a recipe for disaster, it leads to fragmentation since everyone on a different distro uses different commands/workarounds to fuck up their systems in different ways when trying to install poorly packaged software. If everyone just used Debian, we wouldn't need Flatpak, but obviously that's not the case. Whenever you find a "linux app" that's packaged for distroA, but you're on distroB, there's a chance that it will work. That is 100% luck and coincidence, because most linux distros just so happen to ship the same family of system software/libs, sometimes even with the same versions. Rather than leave it up to the undefined behavior lottery, a standardized non-system packaging format can guarantee that things will work across any distro. That's better for everyone involved: users, sysadmins, distro maintainers, and developers. Whether Flatpak is that format idk, but IMO it's the best overall out of the three main contenders (Flatpak, Snap, AppImage)
- ripley12 4y ago
  > It's not hard to maintain, if you compare to building msi installers. I don’t think building MSI installers is especially difficult; it’s kind of a set-it-and-forget-it thing. Configure Wix or Inno Setup once and then you’re good to go (on every Windows machine, no need to worry about multiple distros).

DocTomoe 4y ago

Snaps/Flatpacks/other binary-containerised stuff is one of the major reasons why I abandoned Linux distributions after 22-odd years (1999-2022), and am now a happy Apple user (the other one being abandoning X11 in favour of Wayland, and a switch to laptop-first usage, on which Linux still has horrible power-consumption). Linux distros have a history of abandoning useful, well-understood technology for fads that then cause power users all kinds of headaches later-on (e.g. by cluttering output of useful tools like mount). Eventually, power users just lose the will to adapt, and move on. Could I have just switched distros, or compiled my own stuff? Sure. But I am no longer a student. I am become a mid-40s guy who is becoming aware his lifetime is not unlimited and can be spent better than learning the ropes of a new system. In the time of Jenkins et al the burden of creating bistro-specific packages is negligible.

evol262 4y ago
> Snaps/Flatpacks/other binary-containerised stuff is one of the major reasons why I abandoned Linux distributions after 22-odd years (1999-2022), and am now a happy Apple user (the other one being abandoning X11 in favour of Wayland, and a switch to laptop-first usage, on which Linux still has horrible power-consumption). Flatpaks/Snaps are almost exactly the same, conceptually, as apps on MacOS. Go look inside something in /Applications/... The .app is a folder, with all of its deps. > Linux distros have a history of abandoning useful, well-understood technology for fads that then cause power users all kinds of headaches later-on (e.g. by cluttering output of useful tools like mount). Eventually, power users just lose the will to adapt, and move on. "Power users" have a history of complaining about distro maintainers abandoning useful, well-understood techology because the "power users" don't actually understand the technology, nor do the understand the enormous headaches it causes distro maintainers to put a sane face on 30 year old design philosophies and continue moving forward. The goal of distro maintainers is to STOP investing endless man hours in trying to make X work with high DPI displays, scaling, high refresh rates, a fundamentally insecure design model, and so on. The goal of systemd is/was for distro maintainers to STOP wasting endless man hours on edge cases because sysvinit didn't have reasonable mechanisms for "if anything in this dependency chain is restarted or changed, re-evaluate it" or "don't try to start this service if the mount isn't available so systems stop hanging on startup if some NFS server isn't available" or whatever. > In the time of Jenkins et al the burden of creating bistro-specific packages is negligible. Under the assumption that they are ABI stable, which is a bad one. Otherwise, it's the same old kaleidoscope of mapping out whether it's `libfoo-dev`, `libfoo-devel` for build requirements, whether it's a distro with a completely different naming system, dissecting the ELF header or reversing depchains in Python/Node/whatever to try to find deps and what THOSE are named in some distro, or whether they're even packaged at all, then building for every possible supported version of RHEL, Debian, Ubuntu, Fedora, SuSE, and down the line. This is why "power users" aren't an important user model. Arch, Gentoo, Nix, and others exist if you want to be a "power user". Otherwise, extremely naive assumptions about the amount of effort expended by distro/package maintainers hand-wave the complexity away with "duh, just put it in Jenkins." Flatpak/Snap are essentially a re-invention of putting things in /opt and using LD_LIBRARY_PATH or chrooting. Disk space is much less of a concern than it was before, and sacrificing a little space to AVOID the mess of shit above is a good investment.
- tinus_hn 4y ago
  Mac and iPhone apps don’t automatically update unless you tell them to. The goal of systemd is to make everyone do everything the way Lennart Poettering likes it on his personal laptop. Perhaps some of it is nice but also some of it is not nice. And his holier and smarter than thou attitude is off putting and rightly so. And don’t handwave away wasting my resources just so you can avoid work. That’s how we end up with Microsoft Teams.
  - evol262 4y ago
    The goal of systemd as an *init system* is not the same thing as the goal of some of the systemd umbrella projects, and they shouldn't be conflated. systemd as an init system is leaps and bounds ahead of sysvinit, openrc, and upstart for distro maintainers, large scale sysadmins, etc. No more need for supervisord, random scripts to flag off and on was part of VPN connection, convoluted "meta" scripts which carefully restart 5 different services in the same order and a huge mess of shell. That said, no, Lennart did not/does not do things that way on his personal laptop. His position is that users shouldn't need to know how to configure dnsmasq to have a local caching DNS server, that 99% of the options for dhcpcd aren't used by 99% of users (who are perfectly happy to simply get an address in a fraction of the time), that most users don't need to know how to configure /etc/sysconfig/network-scripts/ifcfg-* or /etc/network/interfaces/* for their use case. If you do, you can disable those things. You can think this is a good opinion or a bad opinion, but at least he's pushing towards some kind of solution which isn't "RTFM". If you think his ideas are bad, propose new ones. Start a project which does it better. "Just don't change anything" is not a meaningful or productive way to design software or operating systems.
    - tinus_hn 4y ago
      Some interesting gaslighting here, complaints about the forced systemd ecosystem can be deflected by pointing at the init system. Which, just like the rest of the ecosystem, improves some parts and deteriorates others like the absolutely worthless journaling log replacement. Anyway I’m not about to engage the systemd evangelization task force, thanks. Good luck elsewhere.

sergiosgc 4y ago

There's a Pareto effort, of course. If you release Debian and Redhat packages, you cover 80% of the user base. It's not hard to maintain, if you compare to building msi installers. Further, the process of generating packages for derivatives of debian or redhat can be mostly automated, so user coverage is bound to grow if your package is popular. As for root requirements, what you are asking for are (non privileged) user installable packages. Packages that install only to the user account. This feature doesn't exist, but it'd be a much saner approach than snap/flatpak.

bogwog 4y ago
I go to cool app website, I click download, I get a '.deb' file, I click .deb file, it opens some installer GUI (instead of Ark because I'm lucky today), I click install, I get error, I google error, I find cryptic commands that modify my system in weird ways just to get the app to install, I install app, I open app, it crashes, I open firefox, I get error "error: libX.so.1.2 not found", I can no longer google the error. The system package manager is convenient when it works, because it's already there. But that's about it. Using it to install any random apps is a recipe for disaster, it leads to fragmentation since everyone on a different distro uses different commands/workarounds to fuck up their systems in different ways when trying to install poorly packaged software. If everyone just used Debian, we wouldn't need Flatpak, but obviously that's not the case. Whenever you find a "linux app" that's packaged for distroA, but you're on distroB, there's a chance that it will work. That is 100% luck and coincidence, because most linux distros just so happen to ship the same family of system software/libs, sometimes even with the same versions. Rather than leave it up to the undefined behavior lottery, a standardized non-system packaging format can guarantee that things will work across any distro. That's better for everyone involved: users, sysadmins, distro maintainers, and developers. Whether Flatpak is that format idk, but IMO it's the best overall out of the three main contenders (Flatpak, Snap, AppImage)
ripley12 4y ago
> It's not hard to maintain, if you compare to building msi installers. I don’t think building MSI installers is especially difficult; it’s kind of a set-it-and-forget-it thing. Configure Wix or Inno Setup once and then you’re good to go (on every Windows machine, no need to worry about multiple distros).