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> Tesla has made self-driving (for some definition of self-driving") I'd be okay with this if they weren't f'ing it up. Put Lidar in there and just get it rig

> Tesla has made self-driving (for some definition of self-driving") I'd be okay with this if they weren't f'ing it up. Put Lidar in there and just get it right. Stop w/ this non-sense.

jandrewrogers 4y ago
Aside from whatever Tesla is doing, LIDAR has some fundamental technical deficiencies such that it is unlikely to ever be a viable long term solution. I find the arguments against LIDAR compelling with the context of having worked with this data.
- aydyn 4y ago
  can you be more specific what those deficiencies are?
  - patmcc 4y ago
    LIDAR has some issues in rain and snow, and can't read road markings or signs (or make out colours). And it's pretty expensive currently. A combination of LIDAR and cameras is likely what'll end up working best, they complement each other nicely.
    - gertlex 4y ago
      Just to nitpick/paint a less absolute picture: Having worked at a couple companies using lidar, you can make out stuff like road markings based on relative brightness (especially if retroreflective paint is used), in ideal conditions, but that's of course not everywhere. I agree a combo seems like the way forward.
  - jandrewrogers 4y ago
    The one that few people think about is that use of LIDAR interferes with other LIDAR. LIDAR works mostly because almost no one is using LIDAR. By contrast, passive optical scales infinitely even if it is more difficult and there is an existence proof that it is possible. Automotive companies view LIDAR as a dead-end even though it works well (in some environments) now.
- everly 4y ago
  LIDAR is absolutely the technically superior approach compared to photogrammetry + ML but is cost-prohibitive (in Tesla's view) Personally, I'll never trust their self-driving product for anything more than lane-keeping unless they incorporate LIDAR
  - jfengel 4y ago
    LIDAR would certainly solve the problem of crashes, which is indeed a serious issue. But I don't see how you could drive with it. It couldn't identify lane markings or exits or traffic lights or cones. And if you can do that well, you should be able to avoid hitting things. Clearly Tesla hasn't solved that and maybe never will. But adding LIDAR wouldn't really solve the problem.
    - irjustin 4y ago
      It's not LIDAR alone it's a combo. The problem of course is that Tesla/Elon is being stubborn and unwilling to put the "expensive" lidar claiming that pictures is enough to work on. Maybe it is, but not today.
      - tpmx 4y ago
        Volvo seems to be getting it right hardware-wise with it's forthcoming EX90 (electric XC90). 250 meter range LIDAR (kept clear from ice, snow and dirt by it's own heat emisssions and nozzles at the end of the windshield wipers - you can tell it's not designed in California), 5 radars, 8 cameras and 16 ultrasonic sensors.
        irjustin 4y ago
        That's amazing. Mercedes has the first certified level 3. Only a few states, but the rest will come. Tesla is falling behind due to its hubris.
        rblatz 4y ago
- rblatz 4y ago
  I see LIDAR self driving vehicles all over the place around Phoenix and Tempe. My Tesla’s autopilot can’t reliably stay on the correct side of the road going through intersections.
auggierose 4y ago
Humans don't have Lidar. They can still drive just fine. Solving self-driving is OBVIOUSLY not about Lidar.
- wkat4242 4y ago
  Cameras are nowhere near the capability of our eyes especially in low light. Computers are nowhere near the capability of our brains in terms of image processing, object identification, path anticipation etc. Until these things improve, self driving cars need to compensate for this gap with more data inputs to be reliable.
  - alfor 4y ago
    Camera are better in low light than our eyes Computers are faster than our brain Software (Neural Net) are not at the level of our brain, in particular they do not fine tune constantly to the current conditions and problems. But they are getting there. Just looking at the visualisation in FSD you can see how accurate the system is at recognizing all the cars, their position, theirs speeds, etc. Human only only track a few objects and only when they catch our attention. Furthermore theirs system has 8 cameras, no distraction, sleepiness, etc.
    - wkat4242 4y ago
      I saw this visualisation recently in a taxi. It was constantly changing its mind about things. One second a scooter would appear as a garbage bin, the second it would disappear and then show up as a scooter again. Pedestrians would only be displayed while they moved. I was surprised how inaccurate it was. And cameras are really bad at noise levels at low light and don't nearly have the dynamic range levels needed for good night vision.
      - eimrine 4y ago
        Just wait for better cameras? Big pixels solve the noice level problems and multiple cameras solve the problem of dynamic range. People also can not measure distance to static things if seing capability is limited to only one eye (riding bicycle is possible with one eye but driving a car is not).
simondotau 4y ago
> Put Lidar in there and just get it right. Stop w/ this non-sense. This is a popular refrain among people who are not studying Tesla’s progress particularly closely, and/or are unfamiliar with the utility LIDAR actually provides. Tesla FSD still has some way to go before it is ready to be a properly autonomous robotaxi — but where it's failing are not areas where adding LIDAR would help. Tesla's vision stack is already sufficiently capable of mapping the three-dimensional environment with sufficient precision. Tesla FSD needs better planning strategies when faced with unusual obstructions like novel construction zone diversions. Adding LIDAR wouldn't help there. Tesla FSD desperately needs more road sign reading skills. LIDAR can't read road signs. Tesla FSD will eventually need to recognise law enforcement officers and respond to hand gestures. LIDAR cannot translate hand gestures into actionable driving instructions, and certainly can't assess the plausibility that the person is a LEO.
- rightbyte 4y ago
  Lidar's are excellent at verifying that the 3d model map is correct. E.g. a perpendicular semitruck with trailer on the road. For item recognition the resolution gets low quick though with range.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - flutas 4y ago
    > Lidar's are excellent at verifying that the 3d model map is correct. IIRC Tesla does use LIDAR in their test vehicles to measure the ground truth of their 3D model maps. They just don't do that with every single car on the road. Examples: https://twitter.com/gbrulte/status/1395356317410287617 https://twitter.com/gbrulte/status/1395356317410287617 https://electrek.co/2020/06/29/tesla-spotted-testing-prototype-array-sensors/ https://electrek.co/2020/06/29/tesla-spotted-testing-prototy...
- maxerickson 4y ago
  Wouldn't LIDAR be useful to help it not occasionally drive into objects? Waymo talks about using LIDAR on their gesture recognition system: https://blog.waymo.com/2022/02/utilizing-key-point-and-pose-estimation.html https://blog.waymo.com/2022/02/utilizing-key-point-and-pose-...

> Tesla has made self-driving (for some definition of self-driving") I'd be okay with this if they weren't f'ing it up. Put Lidar in there and just get it right. Stop w/ this non-sense.

jandrewrogers 4y ago

Aside from whatever Tesla is doing, LIDAR has some fundamental technical deficiencies such that it is unlikely to ever be a viable long term solution. I find the arguments against LIDAR compelling with the context of having worked with this data.

aydyn 4y ago
can you be more specific what those deficiencies are?
- patmcc 4y ago
  LIDAR has some issues in rain and snow, and can't read road markings or signs (or make out colours). And it's pretty expensive currently. A combination of LIDAR and cameras is likely what'll end up working best, they complement each other nicely.
  - gertlex 4y ago
    Just to nitpick/paint a less absolute picture: Having worked at a couple companies using lidar, you can make out stuff like road markings based on relative brightness (especially if retroreflective paint is used), in ideal conditions, but that's of course not everywhere. I agree a combo seems like the way forward.
- jandrewrogers 4y ago
  The one that few people think about is that use of LIDAR interferes with other LIDAR. LIDAR works mostly because almost no one is using LIDAR. By contrast, passive optical scales infinitely even if it is more difficult and there is an existence proof that it is possible. Automotive companies view LIDAR as a dead-end even though it works well (in some environments) now.
everly 4y ago
LIDAR is absolutely the technically superior approach compared to photogrammetry + ML but is cost-prohibitive (in Tesla's view) Personally, I'll never trust their self-driving product for anything more than lane-keeping unless they incorporate LIDAR
- jfengel 4y ago
  LIDAR would certainly solve the problem of crashes, which is indeed a serious issue. But I don't see how you could drive with it. It couldn't identify lane markings or exits or traffic lights or cones. And if you can do that well, you should be able to avoid hitting things. Clearly Tesla hasn't solved that and maybe never will. But adding LIDAR wouldn't really solve the problem.
  - irjustin 4y ago
    It's not LIDAR alone it's a combo. The problem of course is that Tesla/Elon is being stubborn and unwilling to put the "expensive" lidar claiming that pictures is enough to work on. Maybe it is, but not today.
    - tpmx 4y ago
      Volvo seems to be getting it right hardware-wise with it's forthcoming EX90 (electric XC90). 250 meter range LIDAR (kept clear from ice, snow and dirt by it's own heat emisssions and nozzles at the end of the windshield wipers - you can tell it's not designed in California), 5 radars, 8 cameras and 16 ultrasonic sensors.
      - irjustin 4y ago
        That's amazing. Mercedes has the first certified level 3. Only a few states, but the rest will come. Tesla is falling behind due to its hubris.
        rblatz 4y ago
rblatz 4y ago
I see LIDAR self driving vehicles all over the place around Phoenix and Tempe. My Tesla’s autopilot can’t reliably stay on the correct side of the road going through intersections.

auggierose 4y ago

Humans don't have Lidar. They can still drive just fine. Solving self-driving is OBVIOUSLY not about Lidar.

wkat4242 4y ago
Cameras are nowhere near the capability of our eyes especially in low light. Computers are nowhere near the capability of our brains in terms of image processing, object identification, path anticipation etc. Until these things improve, self driving cars need to compensate for this gap with more data inputs to be reliable.
- alfor 4y ago
  Camera are better in low light than our eyes Computers are faster than our brain Software (Neural Net) are not at the level of our brain, in particular they do not fine tune constantly to the current conditions and problems. But they are getting there. Just looking at the visualisation in FSD you can see how accurate the system is at recognizing all the cars, their position, theirs speeds, etc. Human only only track a few objects and only when they catch our attention. Furthermore theirs system has 8 cameras, no distraction, sleepiness, etc.
  - wkat4242 4y ago
    I saw this visualisation recently in a taxi. It was constantly changing its mind about things. One second a scooter would appear as a garbage bin, the second it would disappear and then show up as a scooter again. Pedestrians would only be displayed while they moved. I was surprised how inaccurate it was. And cameras are really bad at noise levels at low light and don't nearly have the dynamic range levels needed for good night vision.
    - eimrine 4y ago
      Just wait for better cameras? Big pixels solve the noice level problems and multiple cameras solve the problem of dynamic range. People also can not measure distance to static things if seing capability is limited to only one eye (riding bicycle is possible with one eye but driving a car is not).

simondotau 4y ago

> Put Lidar in there and just get it right. Stop w/ this non-sense. This is a popular refrain among people who are not studying Tesla’s progress particularly closely, and/or are unfamiliar with the utility LIDAR actually provides. Tesla FSD still has some way to go before it is ready to be a properly autonomous robotaxi — but where it's failing are not areas where adding LIDAR would help. Tesla's vision stack is already sufficiently capable of mapping the three-dimensional environment with sufficient precision. Tesla FSD needs better planning strategies when faced with unusual obstructions like novel construction zone diversions. Adding LIDAR wouldn't help there. Tesla FSD desperately needs more road sign reading skills. LIDAR can't read road signs. Tesla FSD will eventually need to recognise law enforcement officers and respond to hand gestures. LIDAR cannot translate hand gestures into actionable driving instructions, and certainly can't assess the plausibility that the person is a LEO.

rightbyte 4y ago
Lidar's are excellent at verifying that the 3d model map is correct. E.g. a perpendicular semitruck with trailer on the road. For item recognition the resolution gets low quick though with range.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- flutas 4y ago
  > Lidar's are excellent at verifying that the 3d model map is correct. IIRC Tesla does use LIDAR in their test vehicles to measure the ground truth of their 3D model maps. They just don't do that with every single car on the road. Examples: https://twitter.com/gbrulte/status/1395356317410287617 https://twitter.com/gbrulte/status/1395356317410287617 https://electrek.co/2020/06/29/tesla-spotted-testing-prototype-array-sensors/ https://electrek.co/2020/06/29/tesla-spotted-testing-prototy...
maxerickson 4y ago
Wouldn't LIDAR be useful to help it not occasionally drive into objects? Waymo talks about using LIDAR on their gesture recognition system: https://blog.waymo.com/2022/02/utilizing-key-point-and-pose-estimation.html https://blog.waymo.com/2022/02/utilizing-key-point-and-pose-...