4 ms·

Am I misreading, or are you arguing that people are more free to protest in Russia than in Paris?

by rfrey 4y ago

mananaysiempre 4y ago
No, I’m not. What I’m saying is that as long as laws on protests are being followed in full (which in the case of Russia means we’re... somewhere in the late 90s, probably? early 00s at most), the authorities in Paris seem to have much wider latitude to stop people from protesting than would be allowed by the Russian constitution, and that latitude was exercised as recently as 2018. That doesn’t mean the French system doesn’t work right now (certainly there’s a lot of protesting in Paris), but from my paranoid viewpoint it seems extremely exploitable, and it’s chilling to see people shrug at government actions that would have every post-Soviet human rights activist up in arms. I don’t know how else to put this; it just seems fundamental that the government must not (have the ability to) start to prohibit protests, because sooner or later it won’t stop. Maybe I’m just too unwilling to believe in a reasonable government, I don’t know.
- rfrey 4y ago
  Thank you for the clarification.
- hgsgm 4y ago
  The core of the issue is that the law itself matters less than how the people with big guns behave -- they can choose not to enforce the law or they can break the law with impunity, so what matters is what the government / police actually do, and what they actually prevent people from doing. Despite the "bans" on mass protests, the French still protest plenty.
- somenameforme 4y ago
  > "Maybe I’m just too unwilling to believe in a reasonable government, I don’t know." Even if somehow there were a genuinely benevolent socially minded government willing to put society above all of their personal interests (including, even getting elected) - it would be unwise to support potentially oppressive powers. Because sooner or later, that government will be replaced by one that will be happy to exploit those powers for wrongful purpose.
- zabzonk 4y ago
  > every post-Soviet human rights activist up in arms there don't seem to many RUSSIANS of this description around at the moment (not that i would blame them).
- watwut 4y ago
  > people shrug at government actions that would have every post-Soviet human rights activist up in arms Post-Soviet activists did accepted quite a lot ... and post soviet societies are quickest to fall into authoritarian. There are not that many activists in the first place and activists are looked down upon by too many people. My point here is that generally, people on the west are massively better at keeping things democracy.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]

Am I misreading, or are you arguing that people are more free to protest in Russia than in Paris?

by rfrey 4y ago

Am I misreading, or are you arguing that people are more free to protest in Russia than in Paris?

No, I’m not. What I’m saying is that as long as laws on protests are being followed in full (which in the case of Russia means we’re... somewhere in the late 90s, probably? early 00s at most), the authorities in Paris seem to have much wider latitude to stop people from protesting than would be allowed by the Russian constitution, and that latitude was exercised as recently as 2018. That doesn’t mean the French system doesn’t work right now (certainly there’s a lot of protesting in Paris), but from my paranoid viewpoint it seems extremely exploitable, and it’s chilling to see people shrug at government actions that would have every post-Soviet human rights activist up in arms. I don’t know how else to put this; it just seems fundamental that the government must not (have the ability to) start to prohibit protests, because sooner or later it won’t stop. Maybe I’m just too unwilling to believe in a reasonable government, I don’t know.

rfrey 4y ago
Thank you for the clarification.
hgsgm 4y ago
The core of the issue is that the law itself matters less than how the people with big guns behave -- they can choose not to enforce the law or they can break the law with impunity, so what matters is what the government / police actually do, and what they actually prevent people from doing. Despite the "bans" on mass protests, the French still protest plenty.
somenameforme 4y ago
> "Maybe I’m just too unwilling to believe in a reasonable government, I don’t know." Even if somehow there were a genuinely benevolent socially minded government willing to put society above all of their personal interests (including, even getting elected) - it would be unwise to support potentially oppressive powers. Because sooner or later, that government will be replaced by one that will be happy to exploit those powers for wrongful purpose.
zabzonk 4y ago
> every post-Soviet human rights activist up in arms there don't seem to many RUSSIANS of this description around at the moment (not that i would blame them).
watwut 4y ago
> people shrug at government actions that would have every post-Soviet human rights activist up in arms Post-Soviet activists did accepted quite a lot ... and post soviet societies are quickest to fall into authoritarian. There are not that many activists in the first place and activists are looked down upon by too many people. My point here is that generally, people on the west are massively better at keeping things democracy.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]