4 ms·

Good software developers often expect their peers to also be at a high standard and will speak in very plain, rude, and blunt language if they feel others are n

Good software developers often expect their peers to also be at a high standard and will speak in very plain, rude, and blunt language if they feel others are not pulling their weight. Speaking bluntly isn't what is meant by being an asshole/jerk. What we're talking about here is the completely gratuitous, "I'm so valuable here that I can get away with it" abusive behavior that has no correlation with performative ability.

Kranar 4y ago
Yes you have a point, but it's like either we're discussing something obvious and trivial, like a caricature of a person who is just complete asshole abusive toxic diva, or we're discussing the real grey area that is genuinely difficult to deal with. Luckily I've never hired a completely abusive and gratuitous but competent asshole but yes, I would fire that person as a matter of principle regardless of how competent they are. But come on, are we really discussing that scenario or are we discussing the much more common scenario like someone who is about as much of an asshole as 2010s Linus Torvalds? Someone who is really competent but gets very impatient with others, has no problem stating rudely that your work is bad, that you keep making the same tiring mistakes over and over again, that you should know how to do certain things by now, that you're expected blah blah blah. I think that's the more interesting and worthwhile discussion to have and it's the case where for my company, I decided I'll take the asshole over the nice guy.
- lisasays 4y ago
  If they really are a 2010 Linus Torvalds, you just might have a case of keeping them on the team. Unfortunately, 99.99 percent of the people who seem to be trying to be this archetype -- just aren't. Or we're discussing the real grey area that is genuinely difficult to deal with. What's so difficult to deal with? You make it plain and clear to them that their competence absolutely does not give them a pass for bad behavior. And that under no circumstances will it be allowed to continue. I've never hired a completely abusive and gratuitous but competent asshole but ... I decided I'll take the asshole over the nice guy. What? Mealy-mouthed / "strategically nice, but selectively an asshole" is the most common type actually - and still an asshole.
  - Kranar 4y ago
    >What's so difficult to deal with? Respectfully, if you think dealing with people is as simple as delivering ultimatums about their behavior then you likely have not dealt with leading teams of highly skilled professionals.
    - lisasays 4y ago
      The behaviors you are describing (and tacitly defending) - continually getting impatient with, and browbeating (not just criticizing) others - are those of overgrown kidults, basically. Not highly skilled professionals.
      - highperfanon 4y ago
        Those behaviors manifest when you work in high performance environments. Yeah, if you're on the sidelines in an over-funded environment with little connection to the performance of the business, then you can play tea-party and be nice, and inclusive, and oh so delightful. But when you've got a critical deadline you need to meet, and some fuckhead decided he was going to slack and cause the rest of us to have to pick up his end of things due to shear caprice, there's going to be strong language thrown around about the situation -- where all patience has already been exhausted weeks ago. Same shit happens in the Boy Scouts, same shit happens in the military, same shit happens in boardrooms, same shit happens everywhere people go to get stuff done.
        lisasays 4y ago
        [When someone does something stupid, and then people get angry] That's not what we're talking about here. But rather: the type of people who basically prefer to be assholes, on general principle. Even when no one is messing up and everything is going perfectly fine.
        highperfanon 4y ago
        Then we're talking past each other because our experiences are at odds. I have never met, what I imagine is, a gratuitous asshole in the workplace. I've met people who were just all-around cantankerous assholes outside of work, but I quickly distance myself from them. Maybe it's because I've never worked in a corporate environment -- but only small, close-knit teams where that shit isn't tolerated. Or maybe I've just been lucky, I don't know.
- bigbillheck 4y ago
  If they've got the skills of a 2010s Linus Torvalds, why are they working for you?
  - InspiredIdiot 4y ago
    Because interest rates are now nonzero so they couldn't get their startup funded without a string of successes to point to?
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
chrsig 4y ago
> What we're talking about here is the completely gratuitous, "I'm so valuable here that I can get away with it" abusive behavior that has no correlation with performative ability. Can you give a concrete example of this behavior? I'm sure I can think of some, but I'd like to be more clear on what you had in mind.
- lisasays 4y ago
  This comment a few branches over describes a fairy typical example: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35363501 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35363501 Then there are all kinds of examples not specific to matters of pure and simple rudeness (e.g. all manner of politicking, manouevring and bad-mouthing that goes on), as well as not defending / standing up for others when you should, etc. There have been plenty of serious articles written about this topic; the search term to look for would be "workplace hygiene", which is the somewhat more formal description. ("Toxic work environments", "workplace bullying" also work but tend to be more second-hand, and sometimes spammy).
commandlinefan 4y ago
> Speaking bluntly isn't what is meant by being an asshole/jerk. That's not what you meant. That is what a lot of other people mean.
- lisasays 4y ago
  I would replace "a lot of" with "some". And as with a lot of things, some people are simply wrong. Because that's not what the commonly accepted definitions of those terms are held to mean.
lightbendover 4y ago
I wouldn't be so sure about that, speaking directly/bluntly often gets you labeled as a jerk these days. I'm over it though, people are going to hear what they need to hear, whether that makes me a jerk or not.

Kranar 4y ago

Yes you have a point, but it's like either we're discussing something obvious and trivial, like a caricature of a person who is just complete asshole abusive toxic diva, or we're discussing the real grey area that is genuinely difficult to deal with. Luckily I've never hired a completely abusive and gratuitous but competent asshole but yes, I would fire that person as a matter of principle regardless of how competent they are. But come on, are we really discussing that scenario or are we discussing the much more common scenario like someone who is about as much of an asshole as 2010s Linus Torvalds? Someone who is really competent but gets very impatient with others, has no problem stating rudely that your work is bad, that you keep making the same tiring mistakes over and over again, that you should know how to do certain things by now, that you're expected blah blah blah. I think that's the more interesting and worthwhile discussion to have and it's the case where for my company, I decided I'll take the asshole over the nice guy.

lisasays 4y ago
If they really are a 2010 Linus Torvalds, you just might have a case of keeping them on the team. Unfortunately, 99.99 percent of the people who seem to be trying to be this archetype -- just aren't. Or we're discussing the real grey area that is genuinely difficult to deal with. What's so difficult to deal with? You make it plain and clear to them that their competence absolutely does not give them a pass for bad behavior. And that under no circumstances will it be allowed to continue. I've never hired a completely abusive and gratuitous but competent asshole but ... I decided I'll take the asshole over the nice guy. What? Mealy-mouthed / "strategically nice, but selectively an asshole" is the most common type actually - and still an asshole.
- Kranar 4y ago
  >What's so difficult to deal with? Respectfully, if you think dealing with people is as simple as delivering ultimatums about their behavior then you likely have not dealt with leading teams of highly skilled professionals.
  - lisasays 4y ago
    The behaviors you are describing (and tacitly defending) - continually getting impatient with, and browbeating (not just criticizing) others - are those of overgrown kidults, basically. Not highly skilled professionals.
    - highperfanon 4y ago
      Those behaviors manifest when you work in high performance environments. Yeah, if you're on the sidelines in an over-funded environment with little connection to the performance of the business, then you can play tea-party and be nice, and inclusive, and oh so delightful. But when you've got a critical deadline you need to meet, and some fuckhead decided he was going to slack and cause the rest of us to have to pick up his end of things due to shear caprice, there's going to be strong language thrown around about the situation -- where all patience has already been exhausted weeks ago. Same shit happens in the Boy Scouts, same shit happens in the military, same shit happens in boardrooms, same shit happens everywhere people go to get stuff done.
      - lisasays 4y ago
        [When someone does something stupid, and then people get angry] That's not what we're talking about here. But rather: the type of people who basically prefer to be assholes, on general principle. Even when no one is messing up and everything is going perfectly fine.
        highperfanon 4y ago
        Then we're talking past each other because our experiences are at odds. I have never met, what I imagine is, a gratuitous asshole in the workplace. I've met people who were just all-around cantankerous assholes outside of work, but I quickly distance myself from them. Maybe it's because I've never worked in a corporate environment -- but only small, close-knit teams where that shit isn't tolerated. Or maybe I've just been lucky, I don't know.
bigbillheck 4y ago
If they've got the skills of a 2010s Linus Torvalds, why are they working for you?
- InspiredIdiot 4y ago
  Because interest rates are now nonzero so they couldn't get their startup funded without a string of successes to point to?
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

chrsig 4y ago

> What we're talking about here is the completely gratuitous, "I'm so valuable here that I can get away with it" abusive behavior that has no correlation with performative ability. Can you give a concrete example of this behavior? I'm sure I can think of some, but I'd like to be more clear on what you had in mind.

lisasays 4y ago
This comment a few branches over describes a fairy typical example: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35363501 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35363501 Then there are all kinds of examples not specific to matters of pure and simple rudeness (e.g. all manner of politicking, manouevring and bad-mouthing that goes on), as well as not defending / standing up for others when you should, etc. There have been plenty of serious articles written about this topic; the search term to look for would be "workplace hygiene", which is the somewhat more formal description. ("Toxic work environments", "workplace bullying" also work but tend to be more second-hand, and sometimes spammy).

commandlinefan 4y ago

> Speaking bluntly isn't what is meant by being an asshole/jerk. That's not what you meant. That is what a lot of other people mean.

lisasays 4y ago
I would replace "a lot of" with "some". And as with a lot of things, some people are simply wrong. Because that's not what the commonly accepted definitions of those terms are held to mean.

lightbendover 4y ago

I wouldn't be so sure about that, speaking directly/bluntly often gets you labeled as a jerk these days. I'm over it though, people are going to hear what they need to hear, whether that makes me a jerk or not.