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Subverting their democracies and regime-changing their leadership to flip them against Russia is dragging them. If they can't do it by hook, they'll do it by cr

• mopsi 4y ago
  > Can you admit that Bush and the US were pressing for Ukraine and Georgia to join NATO at a time when solid majorities of their actual people were against it? This is a lie, no matter how many times you repeat it. For example, you quoted a Reuters headline: > “Bush VOWS to PRESS for Ukraine, Georgia in NATO” Yet if you read past the headline, GWB was pressuring other NATO allies (mainly France and Germany) to allow Ukraine start membership negotiations, not pressuring Ukraine to join as you represented it. Your sources do not support what you are claiming. Your conspiracy theory hinges on the obvious lie of countries being forced into NATO. Remove this lie, and the narrative of "big scary America preying upon poor little Russia" falls apart, because suddenly NATO membership becomes the initiative of Eastern European governments, and if you ask why, then you'll get a long list of crimes against humanity committed by Russia in those countries in the 20th century (and now 21st century too) highlighting the need for defense cooperation in Eastern Europe to prevent it from happening again.
  • EGreg 4y ago
    I never said “big scary America is preyinf upon poor little Russia”. I said USSR, USA, and China have played these games for years and destroyed countries in proxy wars. But let’s just use your one-sided rhetoric, and see how ridiculous it is. Sure, you’ve convinced me! Big Bad Russia has done things much worse than China and USA have ever done to their neighbors. Their neighbors all want to join an alliance against Russia, unlike all the neighbors of great and benevolent USA and China. Of course, USA cares deeply about Ukraine’s safety from Russia since 1994, which is why it worked to make sure Ukraine would give up its nukes. USA and George W Bush cared deeply about Ukraine’s security which is why they pushed NATO to accept the Ukrainian president’s bid to join NATO, even when Ukraine’s own population was against it. They didn’t know what was for their own good. That’s how democracy works, after all. After Yanukovich was elected and ended this, NATO cared so deeply about Ukraine’s remaining defensive weapons ending up in the wrong hands, that they undertook the largest disarmament program in the world, to rid it of these weapons. In 2013, USA felt really bad about Ukraine’s economy. They didn’t want Ukraine to have to keep doing business with a neighbor like Russia, who have done bad things like Holodomor and suppressing the Ukrainian language for hundreds of years. So John McCain and other top people went to Ukraine, to help liberate it from the Russian sphere of influence. This was purely out of concern for the Ukrainian people, especially the ones in the West of Ukraine who had voted 30-37% for the far-right Svoboda party. After all, they better some far-right Russophobic ideologies than the fifth column of Russophiles in the east. Ukraine’s destiny lies in Europe! It is, after all, to improve Ukraine’s own democracy that USA fomented a revolution that overthrew its corrupt, sitting president, who was simply a stooge of Mr Putin. The far-right groups that helped make this happen were merely incidental to what was effectively a people’s uprising — totally different than, say, January 6th in USA. In fact, they were the true patriots, who had Ukraine’s best interests at heart unlike the anti-Maidan protestors, who were astroturfed by Russia. Russia’s house of cards fell apart. With its stooge gone, it became clear that the vast majority of Ukrainians never really wanted ties with Russia, direct flights with Russia, (not even to visit their 11 million relatives there) to do business with Russian clients, nor even to let people in the Donbas keep speaking Russian in their schools. The USA had finally liberated Ukrainians from having to pretend they liked anything Russian… and Russia should just allow Ukraine to join NATO and stop being such a bully. But Russia didn’t back down. They armed insurgents in the Donbas because Putin wanted to take over the entire Ukraine and restore the Soviet Union. It was his unspoken dream, because he never says what he really thinks. Thankfully, NATO kept arming the true government of Ukraine, as well as the true patriots (far right paramilitary) who could defend the motherland from the country which had long abused them, and where they had many relatives — and after years of training eventually got the brave Ukrainians to beat the second best army in Ukraine: the Russians, who they always knew were so weak they’d never be able to overrun the country in a few days. It’s not like the CIA planned a destructive Afghanistan-style guerilla war to tear the country apart as long as it can “make the Russians bleed for as long and as hard as possible.” The Russians were know to be weak, and have been losing since 2022, or maybe since 2014. They’ve run out of ammunition and tanks long ago, and are using shovels. (Btw I am not even making any of the above up… you can’t make this up, it is literally what they say: https://www.thedefensepost.com/2023/03/08/russia-ammunition-shovels-intel/amp/ https://www.thedefensepost.com/2023/03/08/russia-ammunition-...) Of course, this is just as preposterous as believing that USA has the best interests of Afghans in mind when the CIA funded the Mujahideen, and waves of Afghan Arabs to tear apart the country. We KNOW that in nearly every other case since Laos, the CIA played a role in fomenting these conflicts in order to weaken their rivals (Russia, China, etc) and not out of a concern for the country. Sometimes they say the quiet part out loud and you are so willing to believe the propaganda that you ignore it: https://m.facebook.com/IndianMilitaryUpdate/videos/united-states-aids-ukraine-and-her-people-so-that-we-can-fight-russia-over-there/690898798759583/ https://m.facebook.com/IndianMilitaryUpdate/videos/united-st... Look, even if they HAD deep concern for Ukrainians, sending them weapons only makes them LESS safe. Did gulf countries and Iran sending weapons to Gaza ever make the PEOPLE of Gaza safer? The Hamas top leaders weren’t even in Gaza during some of the heaviest bombings — but the civilians were. It’s obscene to volunteer OTHER people to perish in large numbers to achieve some imperialist geopolitical ambitions, if you aren’t actually willing to go and sit under bombs with your family yourself, but force others to! That’s my view.