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If you think of Ivy League colleges (plus MIT, Stanford) as places where students learn, then this tuition is non-sense. If you think of them as 4-year recruiti

If you think of Ivy League colleges (plus MIT, Stanford) as places where students learn, then this tuition is non-sense. If you think of them as 4-year recruiting agencies, then it makes sense. A lot of employers think "if this guy was good enough for Yale, he's probably good for me too". Of course they go on an interview people, but Ivy League act as great filters. At zero cost for employers. What is baffling to me is the value proposition of second tier colleges which charge pretty much the same tuition as the first tier. Have you heard of Wake Forest University? According to the US News ranking [1], it is ranked at 29 among "National Universities" and charges a tuition of $62k. If you were to see a resume of a candidate graduating from Wake Forest, would you jump on it? (Note: I don't want to dis Wake Forest U. I just found it on google minutes ago, I don't think I heard about it until now, and I have no idea if it's good or bad. But it certainly does not have the name recognition of Yale, for me, at least) [1] https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/wake-forest-2978 https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/wake-forest-2978

Ancalagon 4y ago
Arguably a university like that is even worse than a state school. At least I've heard of University of Arizona or UT Austin (both decent state research schools). I've literally never heard of Wake Forest.
- arrosenberg 4y ago
  Every college basketball fan knows Wake Forest because Tim Duncan played there.
- panzagl 4y ago
  If you're even mildly aware of college sports you've heard of Wake Forest. And like many schools in the Southeast, the name means more locally. Also, not everyone has to become a developer.
  - slg 4y ago
    And this is one of the main reasons schools spend money on sports. It is a very cost-efficient form of marketing. I'm not just aware of the name Wake Forrest because of sports, but I know that it is a tough academic school and think highly of its graduates because of sports.
    - temporarara 4y ago
      This is exactly why I don't follow college sports. In my honest opinion sports is an important aspect of life but the place for it is not in academia (whether used for marketing or not). It really devalues and even humiliates the academic institutions and their research if all you know about them is that they've got a good sports team.
      - slg 4y ago
        > It really devalues and even humiliates the academic institutions and their research if all you know about them is that they've got a good sports team. I think you misunderstood my point. Sports was my introduction to the school. That does not mean sports is the only thing I know about the school. I learned about their academic reputation because of sports.
- dieselgate 4y ago
  Oh well it doesn’t really matter if one person from the internet hasnt heard of it, wake forest even has a medical school. Thinking of how “good” an institution is based on name recognition doesn’t scale that well or mean that much. What about McGill University or Reed College? Not trying to be snarky or rude it’s just not a solid metric to gauge things like this based on personal familiarity, given how vast the world is.
  - strikelaserclaw 4y ago
    i think OP's point was just about ROI from going to a certain school. Wake forest might be a great school but paying 60-65k per year to go there isn't what i would say is a good move financially. Just my personal opinion but if a person's talent and skill are kept constant, then the difference in life outcomes (financially, professionally) for that person from going to wake forest vs going to a tier 3 school which is much cheaper is probably not that great. On the other end, going to MIT could affect your life in a significant way, maybe your roomate is the next Bill Gates.
    - taylodl 4y ago
      The whole point is only the ultra-rich (or woefully ignorant) are paying the full retail price for college. Very few people are paying $65K to go to Wake Forest. If they want you then they'll make it affordable for you. If they don't want you then the retail price should drive you away. If you're a sucker then they'll gladly take your money. That's the game colleges have been playing for at least the last 40 years.
  - red-iron-pine 4y ago
    Outside of a few folks in NE, no one in the US knows what McGill is. Source: American in Canada, have a buncha in-laws who went to McGill. No idea what Reed College is.
    - dieselgate 4y ago
      That was kind of my point, McGill is one of the most prestigious universities in Canada/North America/the world and most Americans would have never heard of it
- dieselgate 4y ago
  I think “state school” refers more towards “Utah state university” instead of university of Utah etc. Don’t think people would refer to UT or UoA as state schools They’re all massive state run institutions though
  - red-iron-pine 4y ago
    "state school" doesn't have anything to do with the name having the word "state" in it. it means the school is funded by the individual states; it's not private. U of Texas is absolutely and unquestionable a state school -- it is funded and run by the state of Texas. People absolutely would refer to it in the category of "state schools" -- it's not a private institution compared to something like Rice or Baylor.
    - dieselgate 4y ago
      We’re both right and I mentioned they’re obviously state run institutions. if someone in Michigan says “I go to state” someone isn’t gonna reply “oh University of Michigan or michigan state?” Edit: in California the csu (California state university) system is considered the state university system and is different organizationally than the UC (university of California) system. Though they’re both public state run institutions.
- red-iron-pine 4y ago
  I'm originally from the mid-Atlantic and have heard of Wake Forest, mainly in the context of the NC Research Triangle (Wake is kinda outside of the Triangle, but close enough). And also basketball. But ask me what they do well there in a research or academic sense... no idea. Why you'd chose to go there instead of one of the big state schools in the Triangle (or Duke, which is private) is unknown.
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SkyMarshal 4y ago
Wake Forest is reasonably well-known and well-regarded in the Southeast, but not say at the level of Duke (another private NC university), and definitely not nationally. For Ivy Leagues and similar top tier (Berkeley/Caltech/Duke/MIT/Stanford/), you can go there to study anything and the school name will carry you even if your particular program is not as well-regarded as its counterpart at large state universities. But if your choice is between an expensive mid-tier private university or a state university, then your best strategy is figure out what you want to study and which option has the most well-regarded program for that course, both among academia and industry. But that takes some real due diligence and digging for a high schooler to figure out.
havblue 4y ago
I'm not sure if a comparison to the ivy schools is relevant: yes, there are certainly more prestigious schools out there. I suppose anything depends on the job you're hiring for, as well: they're better at finance than engineering. The us news rankings are partially based on how well-known a college is though. So, yes, there are plenty of people out there who would hire from that college over better known state schools.
cafard 4y ago
Yes, I've heard of it, though honestly more in the context of ACC basketball. I did know a graduate long ago, and understand that she was quite good at her work.

Ancalagon 4y ago

Arguably a university like that is even worse than a state school. At least I've heard of University of Arizona or UT Austin (both decent state research schools). I've literally never heard of Wake Forest.

arrosenberg 4y ago
Every college basketball fan knows Wake Forest because Tim Duncan played there.
panzagl 4y ago
If you're even mildly aware of college sports you've heard of Wake Forest. And like many schools in the Southeast, the name means more locally. Also, not everyone has to become a developer.
- slg 4y ago
  And this is one of the main reasons schools spend money on sports. It is a very cost-efficient form of marketing. I'm not just aware of the name Wake Forrest because of sports, but I know that it is a tough academic school and think highly of its graduates because of sports.
  - temporarara 4y ago
    This is exactly why I don't follow college sports. In my honest opinion sports is an important aspect of life but the place for it is not in academia (whether used for marketing or not). It really devalues and even humiliates the academic institutions and their research if all you know about them is that they've got a good sports team.
    - slg 4y ago
      > It really devalues and even humiliates the academic institutions and their research if all you know about them is that they've got a good sports team. I think you misunderstood my point. Sports was my introduction to the school. That does not mean sports is the only thing I know about the school. I learned about their academic reputation because of sports.
dieselgate 4y ago
Oh well it doesn’t really matter if one person from the internet hasnt heard of it, wake forest even has a medical school. Thinking of how “good” an institution is based on name recognition doesn’t scale that well or mean that much. What about McGill University or Reed College? Not trying to be snarky or rude it’s just not a solid metric to gauge things like this based on personal familiarity, given how vast the world is.
- strikelaserclaw 4y ago
  i think OP's point was just about ROI from going to a certain school. Wake forest might be a great school but paying 60-65k per year to go there isn't what i would say is a good move financially. Just my personal opinion but if a person's talent and skill are kept constant, then the difference in life outcomes (financially, professionally) for that person from going to wake forest vs going to a tier 3 school which is much cheaper is probably not that great. On the other end, going to MIT could affect your life in a significant way, maybe your roomate is the next Bill Gates.
  - taylodl 4y ago
    The whole point is only the ultra-rich (or woefully ignorant) are paying the full retail price for college. Very few people are paying $65K to go to Wake Forest. If they want you then they'll make it affordable for you. If they don't want you then the retail price should drive you away. If you're a sucker then they'll gladly take your money. That's the game colleges have been playing for at least the last 40 years.
- red-iron-pine 4y ago
  Outside of a few folks in NE, no one in the US knows what McGill is. Source: American in Canada, have a buncha in-laws who went to McGill. No idea what Reed College is.
  - dieselgate 4y ago
    That was kind of my point, McGill is one of the most prestigious universities in Canada/North America/the world and most Americans would have never heard of it
dieselgate 4y ago
I think “state school” refers more towards “Utah state university” instead of university of Utah etc. Don’t think people would refer to UT or UoA as state schools They’re all massive state run institutions though
- red-iron-pine 4y ago
  "state school" doesn't have anything to do with the name having the word "state" in it. it means the school is funded by the individual states; it's not private. U of Texas is absolutely and unquestionable a state school -- it is funded and run by the state of Texas. People absolutely would refer to it in the category of "state schools" -- it's not a private institution compared to something like Rice or Baylor.
  - dieselgate 4y ago
    We’re both right and I mentioned they’re obviously state run institutions. if someone in Michigan says “I go to state” someone isn’t gonna reply “oh University of Michigan or michigan state?” Edit: in California the csu (California state university) system is considered the state university system and is different organizationally than the UC (university of California) system. Though they’re both public state run institutions.
red-iron-pine 4y ago
I'm originally from the mid-Atlantic and have heard of Wake Forest, mainly in the context of the NC Research Triangle (Wake is kinda outside of the Triangle, but close enough). And also basketball. But ask me what they do well there in a research or academic sense... no idea. Why you'd chose to go there instead of one of the big state schools in the Triangle (or Duke, which is private) is unknown.

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SkyMarshal 4y ago

Wake Forest is reasonably well-known and well-regarded in the Southeast, but not say at the level of Duke (another private NC university), and definitely not nationally. For Ivy Leagues and similar top tier (Berkeley/Caltech/Duke/MIT/Stanford/), you can go there to study anything and the school name will carry you even if your particular program is not as well-regarded as its counterpart at large state universities. But if your choice is between an expensive mid-tier private university or a state university, then your best strategy is figure out what you want to study and which option has the most well-regarded program for that course, both among academia and industry. But that takes some real due diligence and digging for a high schooler to figure out.

havblue 4y ago

I'm not sure if a comparison to the ivy schools is relevant: yes, there are certainly more prestigious schools out there. I suppose anything depends on the job you're hiring for, as well: they're better at finance than engineering. The us news rankings are partially based on how well-known a college is though. So, yes, there are plenty of people out there who would hire from that college over better known state schools.

cafard 4y ago

Yes, I've heard of it, though honestly more in the context of ACC basketball. I did know a graduate long ago, and understand that she was quite good at her work.