4 ms·

And yet, at the same time, I don't think that they've ever had less to offer. We're increasingly seeing highly critical re-evaluations of the current higher ed

And yet, at the same time, I don't think that they've ever had less to offer. We're increasingly seeing highly critical re-evaluations of the current higher education paradigm, and we're increasingly at a point where an Ivy League diploma has little value save that of a status symbol. (One which basically says "I am conventionally-minded, inclined to do things the 'right' way, and I hold the correct opinions.")

deadmutex 4y ago
> we're increasingly at a point where an Ivy League diploma has little value save that of a status symbol Maybe in some industries. I will be more convinced if entry class of big successful banks like Goldman Sachs isn't full of ivy grads. I personally know people that have flunked phone screens and were given the benefit of the doubt because they went to prestigious schools.
- VirusNewbie 4y ago
  This certainly doesn't happen in big Tech or FAANG (on a large scale). Ivy league is about as useful of a signal as a state school at this point.
  - bitwize 4y ago
    Giggle. If you want to get into Google, a degree from Stanford, Caltech, MIT, or school with similarly prestigious STEM programs will grease the skids. Matter of fact it's nearly a requirement unless you can elevate their ESG score (by being a visible and/or gender-identity or sexual-orientation minority).
    - VirusNewbie 4y ago
      There are people who work at google without any college degrees.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - deadmutex 4y ago
    Big Tech / FAANG employs only a fraction of university graduates each year though. I have interviewed many candidates for a FAANG over several years, and I try to not bias myself on whether they went to an Ivy or not. That said, I have also heard that some deca-unicorn gave up going to non prestigious schools for recruiting because the hit rate was low. This deca unicorn was previously proud of outsmarting other big companies by finding diamonds in the rough by recruiting at no name schools. To some high schoolers reading this: I wouldn't discount the value of a prestigious school to 0. It is not a prerequisite for success, but it will likely make it easier.
pastor_bob 4y ago
Ivy League schools are not outliers though. Pick your random private college with an 80% acceptance rate, and it probably costs 70k+ a year
- A_D_E_P_T 4y ago
  Those places have even less to offer, to such an extent that a fresh diploma from such a school is damn close to a negative signal for intelligence and competence. (If not already past that threshold!)
  - vkou 4y ago
    There isn't enough room in the Ivy league schools for all the competent people in this country to have an Ivy degree, even if you kicked out all the 'legacy' admits. If anyone's treating attending a non-Ivy school as a negative signal for competence, I can only treat that as a negative signal for their competence.
    - karmanyaahm 4y ago
      Which is also exactly what the colleges are saying themselves (on the surface). For example, MIT's rejection letter: > Please understand that this is in no way a judgment of you as a student or as a person, since our decision has more to do with the applicant pool than anything else—many of our applicants are not offered admission simply because we don’t have enough space in our entering class.
CharlieDigital 4y ago
> I don't think that they've ever had less to offer. I think you're wrong about that. Working in SV startup space, you can see that there's a lot of social value placed on an Ivy pedigree. I'd make the case that an Ivy is less important for the higher education than it is for the network and social value gained.
opportune 4y ago
Work at a F/G (not just “faang” because some companies like Amazon are not picky about pedigree at all) or in “hot” startups and you might disagree. A lot of people come from Ivy League schools and similar schools. The value has never been about the actual teaching, it’s about the signaling. While many higher “ranked” schools are able to have more difficult courses due to being able to ask more of their students, it’s not so much that which adds value. Really companies just want the traits we associate with having gone to these schools: being well socialized, able to jump through hoops, having connections, a solid education and likely to be generally intelligent. Of course you can have most of those traits without having ever heard of Dartmouth or Pickelball but the density of those traits coming out of Ivy leagues is high, and it’s reflected in industry (especially in finance, consulting, and academia). Just not so much generic SWE right now since even companies like F/G cannot meet hiring goals by limiting their candidate pool to these schools.
bantunes 4y ago
You go there to make connections for the rest of your life - that's still in high demand.
dimator 4y ago
I don't understand this take. Surely, institutions are the place where the most cutting edge pure research is taking place? Why do people think institutions are where conformity is king?
jbaber 4y ago
The status symbol aspect helps your resume stick out. Not all hiring is 100% merit based.

deadmutex 4y ago

> we're increasingly at a point where an Ivy League diploma has little value save that of a status symbol Maybe in some industries. I will be more convinced if entry class of big successful banks like Goldman Sachs isn't full of ivy grads. I personally know people that have flunked phone screens and were given the benefit of the doubt because they went to prestigious schools.

VirusNewbie 4y ago
This certainly doesn't happen in big Tech or FAANG (on a large scale). Ivy league is about as useful of a signal as a state school at this point.
- bitwize 4y ago
  Giggle. If you want to get into Google, a degree from Stanford, Caltech, MIT, or school with similarly prestigious STEM programs will grease the skids. Matter of fact it's nearly a requirement unless you can elevate their ESG score (by being a visible and/or gender-identity or sexual-orientation minority).
  - VirusNewbie 4y ago
    There are people who work at google without any college degrees.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- deadmutex 4y ago
  Big Tech / FAANG employs only a fraction of university graduates each year though. I have interviewed many candidates for a FAANG over several years, and I try to not bias myself on whether they went to an Ivy or not. That said, I have also heard that some deca-unicorn gave up going to non prestigious schools for recruiting because the hit rate was low. This deca unicorn was previously proud of outsmarting other big companies by finding diamonds in the rough by recruiting at no name schools. To some high schoolers reading this: I wouldn't discount the value of a prestigious school to 0. It is not a prerequisite for success, but it will likely make it easier.

pastor_bob 4y ago

Ivy League schools are not outliers though. Pick your random private college with an 80% acceptance rate, and it probably costs 70k+ a year

A_D_E_P_T 4y ago
Those places have even less to offer, to such an extent that a fresh diploma from such a school is damn close to a negative signal for intelligence and competence. (If not already past that threshold!)
- vkou 4y ago
  There isn't enough room in the Ivy league schools for all the competent people in this country to have an Ivy degree, even if you kicked out all the 'legacy' admits. If anyone's treating attending a non-Ivy school as a negative signal for competence, I can only treat that as a negative signal for their competence.
  - karmanyaahm 4y ago
    Which is also exactly what the colleges are saying themselves (on the surface). For example, MIT's rejection letter: > Please understand that this is in no way a judgment of you as a student or as a person, since our decision has more to do with the applicant pool than anything else—many of our applicants are not offered admission simply because we don’t have enough space in our entering class.

CharlieDigital 4y ago

> I don't think that they've ever had less to offer. I think you're wrong about that. Working in SV startup space, you can see that there's a lot of social value placed on an Ivy pedigree. I'd make the case that an Ivy is less important for the higher education than it is for the network and social value gained.

opportune 4y ago

Work at a F/G (not just “faang” because some companies like Amazon are not picky about pedigree at all) or in “hot” startups and you might disagree. A lot of people come from Ivy League schools and similar schools. The value has never been about the actual teaching, it’s about the signaling. While many higher “ranked” schools are able to have more difficult courses due to being able to ask more of their students, it’s not so much that which adds value. Really companies just want the traits we associate with having gone to these schools: being well socialized, able to jump through hoops, having connections, a solid education and likely to be generally intelligent. Of course you can have most of those traits without having ever heard of Dartmouth or Pickelball but the density of those traits coming out of Ivy leagues is high, and it’s reflected in industry (especially in finance, consulting, and academia). Just not so much generic SWE right now since even companies like F/G cannot meet hiring goals by limiting their candidate pool to these schools.

bantunes 4y ago

You go there to make connections for the rest of your life - that's still in high demand.

dimator 4y ago

I don't understand this take. Surely, institutions are the place where the most cutting edge pure research is taking place? Why do people think institutions are where conformity is king?

jbaber 4y ago

The status symbol aspect helps your resume stick out. Not all hiring is 100% merit based.