6 ms·

It is death of an operating system. Before our eyes. Microsoft is trying desperately to squeeze a bit more cash out of it but the failing culture within Microso

It is death of an operating system. Before our eyes. Microsoft is trying desperately to squeeze a bit more cash out of it but the failing culture within Microsoft is unable to recognise they are driving users off their own product. I already got fed up enough that I basically banned Windows at home and I am impatiently waiting to kill one last Windows box. It is our gaming machine that is generally available to entire household of 5 (3 adults and 2 kids). All other machines (we have 7 other machines, 6 laptops and a desktop) are either Windows laptops converted to Linux or new Macbooks and it seems we will only have more MacOS now that Apple got a bit more sane with their hardware choices. I may leave one Windows instance running in Proxmox just in case if somebody needs it.

twosdai 4y ago
I've been gaming on pop os for a little while now. It's pretty good honestly. I would give it a shot.
- nazgulsenpai 4y ago
  I've been gaming on Void Linux of all things since November and it's run everything that isn't just flat out incompatible with Linux (anti-cheat doesn't allow, etc). Sometimes I think it sucks that I can't play X because the anti-cheat won't allow it to start, then I remember it's a kernel level driver I cross my fingers and hope isn't doing anything nefarious and feel better.
- hotpotamus 4y ago
  Same - I switched to Pop!_OS last year and after a decade or two of being disappointed with the claims that Linux gaming had come a long way, I'm very impressed with Valve's Proton compatibility.
pianoben 4y ago
For what it's worth, a ton of people inside of MSFT are opposed to these changes. The few responsible for them are answering to overwhelming pressure from the Finance side. Every time something like this ships out, guaranteed just about every CVP fields angry/annoyed/exasperated complaints about it.
- wvenable 4y ago
  Unfortunately, it's perfectly logical. On the one hand you have $x/year and the other you have $0/year. The argument that all this marketing stuff in the OS is having a negative financial effect is extremely hard to prove. This is where having a strong minded CEO comes into play. You literally have to have someone who can say "although this makes us less money, this is correct approach". In an organization whose entire purpose is to make money, very few people have the authority to make that call.
  - pianoben 4y ago
    Yep, you're absolutely correct. Services are where the money comes from these days, and Satya et al show with their actions that they consider the Windows value prop to be as a sales driver for those services. It's simplicity itself to attribute the revenue growth, and very difficult to link ads to negative sentiment leading to abandonment. No doubt they see Apple's relentless iCloud spamming as validation, but it's grating to get spam from an OS that you already paid for.
  - mjamesaustin 4y ago
    Hello late stage capitalism.
  - esafak 4y ago
    On the one hand you have $x/year and the other you have $0/year. That's the wrong metric; you should look at the LTV. Guess what: pissing off users reduces your LTV significantly. If their users are too dumb or tasteless to care then they deserve each other.
- binkHN 4y ago
  Longtime Windows users here—migrating away because the OS has become a marketing tool instead of the productivity behemoth that it once was. Yes, there are still TONS OF THINGS THAT WINDOWS DOES BETTER THAN EVERY OTHER OS, but what Windows is becoming is causing me to overlook this. The next step for me here will be migrating clients off of Windows on their machines too.
nikanj 4y ago
Windows has been imminently dying since the early 00s, and still seems to be in mortal peril every day.
- twawaaay 4y ago
  It has definitely NOT been dying since early 00s. The first definable moment where I think Windows started being at risk was release of iPhone and then smartphones that followed it (so say 2008). But even then it wasn't yet clear that smartphones will take over the world so thoroughly and drive people from using laptops. Until that moment I would definitely project that the future will see more and more people having access to laptops. Only after it was clear people are more likely going to go with smartphones (around 2009-2010) it was reasonable to say that the market share of Windows has to start falling in favour of smartphones. And it still wasn't clear that the same will be true even within laptop/desktop market.
  - MomoXenosaga 4y ago
    Yeah it is not and never will be Linux or whatever HN poster child that will kill MS. It is smartphones. Which MS was aware of but we all know what happened with Windows Phone.
  - nikanj 4y ago
    It was dying before the iPhone due to Linux overtaking desktops
Latty 4y ago
Just as Valve are making Linux way more viable for gaming, there are still pain points if you are into certain stuff with anti-cheat that doesn't like it, as I understand it, but for my use case, my Steam Deck plays everything I personally want right now extremely well. When my Windows 10 install on my dedicated gaming PC finally gets too old, I may just switch to SteamOS for gaming.
dspillett 4y ago
> but the failing culture within Microsoft is unable to recognise they are driving users off their own product. Many recognise it, but don't care. Windows is not longer the cash-cow it once was even on the server. Azure is the new baby there – they don't care what server OS you run as long as you run it on their kit. In homes and offices Windows is just a vehicle for Office and Visual Studio, they are pushing people more towards the online office variants of Office (users therefore becoming dependent on a subscription for access to apps and storage/backups). Back to the server, and SQL Server runs on Linux these days or (even better for them) Azure-native. If it wouldn't look terrible to just dump Windows, I'm fairly sure they would do so soon if they hadn't already. It would save them all the hassle of hardware compatibility, dealing with manufactures, being blamed for instability cause by bad drivers (on top of instability cause by bad Windows that is their fault!). They could let Linux & Apple deal with all that crap, and just sell cloud services, Office/SQL/Exchange licences, etc. to users of those OSs. They'd keep something of Windows on their console, but that is minute in comparison because it only needs to be the core & they control the hardware selection, and again that is just a vehicle with which to sell a subscription service to the end user and licensing/SDKs to developers. Windows is only really moving forwards at all due to momentum, MS would rather be concentrating on other things that are more profitable for less hassle & questionable press.
- archerx 4y ago
  I used azure at a previous job and it was awful, I even convinced the company to ditch it and buy a cheap local server. The end result is it was faster, they saved money and things worked better. If microsoft is really betting all its cards on azure then I would absolutely short it if I was into finance. Once my Windows 10 no longer works I will NOT be upgrading to Windows 11, I will either go linux or mac because I can’t tolerate microsofts crap anymore. I will never pay for an azure office or visual studio subscription, I will avoid microsoft products like the plague after all the crap they pulled and I have been using windows since version 3.11
Mountain_Skies 4y ago
Microsoft is primarily a cloud services company now. Legacy products need to fund themselves and it's difficult to get much for a Windows consumer license these days, so the Windows group has to find revenue where they can. At least the people in the Office group have a nice revenue stream from Office 365. Consumer Windows just isn't a viable standalone product anymore, at least not one that can cover its own costs easily. Windows Server still brings in revenue for licenses, so whatever development on Server that makes its way over to Consumer is probably a subsidy, though I wouldn't put it past Microsoft to have one department charge another for services.
- joshuaissac 4y ago
  > Legacy products need to fund themselves > Windows Server still brings in revenue for licenses, so whatever development on Server that makes its way over to Consumer is probably a subsidy Windows for desktop brought in almost $25 billion in revenues in 2022, which was more than SQL Server, Windows Server and Visual Studio put together. https://www.kamilfranek.com/microsoft-revenue-breakdown/ https://www.kamilfranek.com/microsoft-revenue-breakdown/
the8472 4y ago
The Windows 10 for business installs at $work seem to be clean. I don't know if that's IT's doing or that's the default. So this could be a classic "if you're not paying for it you're the product" issue
- layer8 4y ago
  The problem is that Windows Enterprise isn't sold to individual users (and if it did, you'd still have to run a domain controller on Windows Server alongside it). Windows Professional still gets most of the same crappy behavior as Home.
  - iotku 4y ago
    If you have access to an Education edition key it's about as close as you can get legitimately to Enterprise. I dare to say it's almost pleasant to use after a few Group policy tweaks (disable web search , telemetry, and widgets). No preinstalled Candy Crush either. Can run a local account without too much hassle but the Microsoft store is far more aggressive to make you login in 11 than 10 even for Education. Honestly it's the only thing keeping me on Windows, but my laptop came with the standard edition of 11 with loads of preinstalled crapware that persists after a Windows reset and I was about ready to throw it out the window.
deely3 4y ago
Counterpoint: Android.
jsmith99 4y ago
Do you feel Mac is better? The article is about windows suggesting OneDrive, but Mac also suggests iCloud if you haven't connected it.
- ducknalddon 4y ago
  Apple isn't anywhere near as intrusive as Microsoft.

twosdai 4y ago

I've been gaming on pop os for a little while now. It's pretty good honestly. I would give it a shot.

nazgulsenpai 4y ago
I've been gaming on Void Linux of all things since November and it's run everything that isn't just flat out incompatible with Linux (anti-cheat doesn't allow, etc). Sometimes I think it sucks that I can't play X because the anti-cheat won't allow it to start, then I remember it's a kernel level driver I cross my fingers and hope isn't doing anything nefarious and feel better.
hotpotamus 4y ago
Same - I switched to Pop!_OS last year and after a decade or two of being disappointed with the claims that Linux gaming had come a long way, I'm very impressed with Valve's Proton compatibility.

pianoben 4y ago

For what it's worth, a ton of people inside of MSFT are opposed to these changes. The few responsible for them are answering to overwhelming pressure from the Finance side. Every time something like this ships out, guaranteed just about every CVP fields angry/annoyed/exasperated complaints about it.

wvenable 4y ago
Unfortunately, it's perfectly logical. On the one hand you have $x/year and the other you have $0/year. The argument that all this marketing stuff in the OS is having a negative financial effect is extremely hard to prove. This is where having a strong minded CEO comes into play. You literally have to have someone who can say "although this makes us less money, this is correct approach". In an organization whose entire purpose is to make money, very few people have the authority to make that call.
- pianoben 4y ago
  Yep, you're absolutely correct. Services are where the money comes from these days, and Satya et al show with their actions that they consider the Windows value prop to be as a sales driver for those services. It's simplicity itself to attribute the revenue growth, and very difficult to link ads to negative sentiment leading to abandonment. No doubt they see Apple's relentless iCloud spamming as validation, but it's grating to get spam from an OS that you already paid for.
- mjamesaustin 4y ago
  Hello late stage capitalism.
- esafak 4y ago
  On the one hand you have $x/year and the other you have $0/year. That's the wrong metric; you should look at the LTV. Guess what: pissing off users reduces your LTV significantly. If their users are too dumb or tasteless to care then they deserve each other.
binkHN 4y ago
Longtime Windows users here—migrating away because the OS has become a marketing tool instead of the productivity behemoth that it once was. Yes, there are still TONS OF THINGS THAT WINDOWS DOES BETTER THAN EVERY OTHER OS, but what Windows is becoming is causing me to overlook this. The next step for me here will be migrating clients off of Windows on their machines too.

nikanj 4y ago

Windows has been imminently dying since the early 00s, and still seems to be in mortal peril every day.

twawaaay 4y ago
It has definitely NOT been dying since early 00s. The first definable moment where I think Windows started being at risk was release of iPhone and then smartphones that followed it (so say 2008). But even then it wasn't yet clear that smartphones will take over the world so thoroughly and drive people from using laptops. Until that moment I would definitely project that the future will see more and more people having access to laptops. Only after it was clear people are more likely going to go with smartphones (around 2009-2010) it was reasonable to say that the market share of Windows has to start falling in favour of smartphones. And it still wasn't clear that the same will be true even within laptop/desktop market.
- MomoXenosaga 4y ago
  Yeah it is not and never will be Linux or whatever HN poster child that will kill MS. It is smartphones. Which MS was aware of but we all know what happened with Windows Phone.
- nikanj 4y ago
  It was dying before the iPhone due to Linux overtaking desktops

Latty 4y ago

Just as Valve are making Linux way more viable for gaming, there are still pain points if you are into certain stuff with anti-cheat that doesn't like it, as I understand it, but for my use case, my Steam Deck plays everything I personally want right now extremely well. When my Windows 10 install on my dedicated gaming PC finally gets too old, I may just switch to SteamOS for gaming.

dspillett 4y ago

> but the failing culture within Microsoft is unable to recognise they are driving users off their own product. Many recognise it, but don't care. Windows is not longer the cash-cow it once was even on the server. Azure is the new baby there – they don't care what server OS you run as long as you run it on their kit. In homes and offices Windows is just a vehicle for Office and Visual Studio, they are pushing people more towards the online office variants of Office (users therefore becoming dependent on a subscription for access to apps and storage/backups). Back to the server, and SQL Server runs on Linux these days or (even better for them) Azure-native. If it wouldn't look terrible to just dump Windows, I'm fairly sure they would do so soon if they hadn't already. It would save them all the hassle of hardware compatibility, dealing with manufactures, being blamed for instability cause by bad drivers (on top of instability cause by bad Windows that is their fault!). They could let Linux & Apple deal with all that crap, and just sell cloud services, Office/SQL/Exchange licences, etc. to users of those OSs. They'd keep something of Windows on their console, but that is minute in comparison because it only needs to be the core & they control the hardware selection, and again that is just a vehicle with which to sell a subscription service to the end user and licensing/SDKs to developers. Windows is only really moving forwards at all due to momentum, MS would rather be concentrating on other things that are more profitable for less hassle & questionable press.

archerx 4y ago
I used azure at a previous job and it was awful, I even convinced the company to ditch it and buy a cheap local server. The end result is it was faster, they saved money and things worked better. If microsoft is really betting all its cards on azure then I would absolutely short it if I was into finance. Once my Windows 10 no longer works I will NOT be upgrading to Windows 11, I will either go linux or mac because I can’t tolerate microsofts crap anymore. I will never pay for an azure office or visual studio subscription, I will avoid microsoft products like the plague after all the crap they pulled and I have been using windows since version 3.11

Mountain_Skies 4y ago

Microsoft is primarily a cloud services company now. Legacy products need to fund themselves and it's difficult to get much for a Windows consumer license these days, so the Windows group has to find revenue where they can. At least the people in the Office group have a nice revenue stream from Office 365. Consumer Windows just isn't a viable standalone product anymore, at least not one that can cover its own costs easily. Windows Server still brings in revenue for licenses, so whatever development on Server that makes its way over to Consumer is probably a subsidy, though I wouldn't put it past Microsoft to have one department charge another for services.

joshuaissac 4y ago
> Legacy products need to fund themselves > Windows Server still brings in revenue for licenses, so whatever development on Server that makes its way over to Consumer is probably a subsidy Windows for desktop brought in almost $25 billion in revenues in 2022, which was more than SQL Server, Windows Server and Visual Studio put together. https://www.kamilfranek.com/microsoft-revenue-breakdown/ https://www.kamilfranek.com/microsoft-revenue-breakdown/

the8472 4y ago

The Windows 10 for business installs at $work seem to be clean. I don't know if that's IT's doing or that's the default. So this could be a classic "if you're not paying for it you're the product" issue

layer8 4y ago
The problem is that Windows Enterprise isn't sold to individual users (and if it did, you'd still have to run a domain controller on Windows Server alongside it). Windows Professional still gets most of the same crappy behavior as Home.
- iotku 4y ago
  If you have access to an Education edition key it's about as close as you can get legitimately to Enterprise. I dare to say it's almost pleasant to use after a few Group policy tweaks (disable web search , telemetry, and widgets). No preinstalled Candy Crush either. Can run a local account without too much hassle but the Microsoft store is far more aggressive to make you login in 11 than 10 even for Education. Honestly it's the only thing keeping me on Windows, but my laptop came with the standard edition of 11 with loads of preinstalled crapware that persists after a Windows reset and I was about ready to throw it out the window.

deely3 4y ago

Counterpoint: Android.

jsmith99 4y ago

Do you feel Mac is better? The article is about windows suggesting OneDrive, but Mac also suggests iCloud if you haven't connected it.

ducknalddon 4y ago
Apple isn't anywhere near as intrusive as Microsoft.