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David Graeber argued that 21st century democracy is not directly based on any ancient model, including any Greek one. You'll notice how the Greeks didn't have a
by ogogmad 4y ago
David Graeber argued that 21st century democracy is not directly based on any ancient model, including any Greek one. You'll notice how the Greeks didn't have any permanent civil service*. You'll notice how they kept slaves. You'll also notice how they didn't have much resembling our notion of civil liberties, including free speech: Otherwise, on what grounds was Socrates murdered?
* - We might partially have borrowed this from China.
- qsort 4y agoThis sounds like an incredibly obvious observation? Modern liberal democracy comes from the revolutions in the 17th and 18th centuries. Greek poleis were at most an inspiration, like the ancient Olympics for the modern ones.
- ogogmad 4y agoFair. He actually had the more radical idea that "Western" democracy owes a lot to pre-Columbus America.
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- wolfram74 4y agoI don't recall the source, but I'm pretty sure some of my k-12 civics courses mentioned something along the lines of benjamin franklin borrowing some concepts from indigenous civil structures.
- whitemary 4y ago> This sounds like an incredibly obvious observation? Unfortunately, there are a lot of people in the US who think American liberal ideals are, in some more-or-less abstract manner, descended from ancient Greece or ancient Rome. Maybe it's our neoclassical state buildings. I'm not sure.
- yamtaddle 4y ago> * - We might partially have borrowed this from China. The British deliberately sinofied their civil service starting in the very early 19th century, and the US didn't properly get a civil service system until late in that century, so I'd be pretty surprised if that's not the case (at least, second-hand, by way of observing and imitating Great Britain) As for the ancients, I'd buy that our connection to either Athens or the Roman Republic is largely superficial and was mostly upper-class ego-stroking affectation, but I definitely think it leans much heavier toward the latter than the former. Our symbols like the fasces and eagle, Washington's famous and surely-self-conscious imitation of Cincinnatus, that kind of thing.
- whitemary 4y agoThe United States had legal chattel slavery for the first century of its existence, so that point is moot. Of course your overall point is correct.