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> The security argument for the App Store has never been stronger. Is this really what we want? Because if so, what is the difference between a clamped down A

> The security argument for the App Store has never been stronger. Is this really what we want? Because if so, what is the difference between a clamped down App Store with arbitrary rules, and what China does with their Great Firewall?

simmerup 4y ago
Every industry is regulated, it’s coming for software and it will help the common user from being exploited. Do you see the legislation for broadcasting and say, ‘What makes that different from how you have no free speech in China?!’ We’ve already had voluntary step backs in the idea of online liberalism with Twitter having to be heavily pressured to take down ISIS propaganda. Codifying those rules for everyone is inevitable.
dec0dedab0de 4y ago
what is the difference between a clamped down App Store with arbitrary rules, and what China does with their Great Firewall? With a locked down App store in America you have an option of using another device, or just using a computer, without any repercussion. With the Chinese great firewall working around it can lead to legal troubles, to put it lightly.
raincole 4y ago
... you know you can buy an Android phone, if that's what you want, right? You can't get an ISP without Great Firewall in China. If you try to found such an ISP you'll be in jail.
- matheusmoreira 4y ago
  > you can buy an Android phone, if that's what you want That's not what I want. I want Apple hardware. With software of my choosing on it.
  - otterley 4y ago
    I want a pony!
  - raincole 4y ago
    Yes. It's called jailbreak. And yes, it's legal in the US. > what is the difference between a clamped down App Store with arbitrary rules, and what China does with their Great Firewall? I hope you understand the difference now!
    - matheusmoreira 4y ago
      What are you talking about? The DMCA makes it illegal to circumvent software locks.
      - ryukafalz 4y ago
        There is currently an exemption for this: > Computer programs that enable smartphones, tablets, and portable all-purpose mobile computing devices, and smart televisions to execute lawfully obtained software applications, where circumvention is accomplished for the sole purpose of enabling interoperability of such applications with computer programs on the smartphone or device or to permit removal of software from the smartphone or device; (From the exemptions section of https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Millennium_Copyright_Act https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Millennium_Copyright...) They are time limited, so this may not be renewed in the next rulemaking session. (Yes, it's a silly system.)
pknomad 4y ago
Yes. It's going to be an unpopular opinion but there's an awful lot of applications that are out there that are just hilariously outdated, terribly made, or is some form of malware. I mostly use mainstream apps (Google Maps, Bitwarden, Safari, Slack, Discord, Spotify, Canary, etc) and the times I do look for new apps I enjoy having the convenience of not having sift through awful apps that used to plague android market (and to a certain extent google playstore). App Store is not perfect by any means but I think it's superior to alternatives that are out there for users like me.
otterley 4y ago
> what is the difference between a clamped down App Store with arbitrary rules, and what China does with their Great Firewall? 1/Apple is based in a country that follows the rule of law, with checks and balances, and can be sued if it disobeys the law. 2/Apple does not have police, a military, or other means to force you to act against your will. 3/Apple does not prevent you from accessing information outside the country. 4/Apple does not coerce you to say things even if they are false. 5/Apple does not torture -- sorry, I mean "re-educate" -- Muslims. Please, don't make specious arguments comparing your inability to install some app few people need to being oppressed under the thumb of the CCP. Let's turn down the dramatic volume a little, shall we?
- manuelabeledo 4y ago
  That's obviously not what I meant. The CCP "great firewall" excuse is, precisely, that it will keep "bad actors" away from the homeland, or "flies" as Den Xiaoping put it. We all know what is the real reason, though. Apple uses the same excuse: security through arbitrary content control. As other users have said, I could go and buy an Android phone, or I could even use no phone, why not? But that's not the point. The point is, I'm not buying a device from Apple, I'm just leasing it, with certain conditions. And that should be, in my opinion, not only against the law, but widely considered unethical.
  - otterley 4y ago
    You’re not leasing your phone: you don’t have to pay the owner for continued use of it or be forced to return it. I get that you don’t like the current state of affairs, but your analogies aren’t good ones. Ownership has never meant that you are free to do what you want with your property. You take the property as is, and sometimes there are even legal restrictions to what you can do with it. For example, I’m not allowed to build a slaughterhouse on my land.
    - manuelabeledo 4y ago
      > You’re not leasing your phone: you don’t have to pay the owner for continued use of it or be forced to return it. Call it what you want. I pay a lump sum for something that doesn't technically belong to me. And, if I break their ToS, they reserve the right to disable it. People are rightfully upset about carmakers putting common features behind a paywall. It seems appropriate that they would be too, if they were forbidden to use their car as they pleased. > Ownership has never meant that you are free to do what you want with your property. You take the property as is, and sometimes there are even legal restrictions to what you can do with it. For example, I’m not allowed to build a slaughterhouse on my land. This is absurd. Of course the rule of the law forbids you from having a slaughterhouse in your land if you don't comply with regulations. The terms of the App Store are part of a contract, not a law. Contracts may be initially binding, but they may also be illegal after review, and I personally hope they are in this regard. In other words, there is no law saying that I shall not distribute porn on the App Store, that is just Apple's prerogative. On the other hand, if you are arguing that federal and state laws are equivalent to private contracts, then your previous point about the Great Firewall and the App Store is moot.

simmerup 4y ago

Every industry is regulated, it’s coming for software and it will help the common user from being exploited. Do you see the legislation for broadcasting and say, ‘What makes that different from how you have no free speech in China?!’ We’ve already had voluntary step backs in the idea of online liberalism with Twitter having to be heavily pressured to take down ISIS propaganda. Codifying those rules for everyone is inevitable.

dec0dedab0de 4y ago

what is the difference between a clamped down App Store with arbitrary rules, and what China does with their Great Firewall? With a locked down App store in America you have an option of using another device, or just using a computer, without any repercussion. With the Chinese great firewall working around it can lead to legal troubles, to put it lightly.

raincole 4y ago

... you know you can buy an Android phone, if that's what you want, right? You can't get an ISP without Great Firewall in China. If you try to found such an ISP you'll be in jail.

matheusmoreira 4y ago
> you can buy an Android phone, if that's what you want That's not what I want. I want Apple hardware. With software of my choosing on it.
- otterley 4y ago
  I want a pony!
- raincole 4y ago
  Yes. It's called jailbreak. And yes, it's legal in the US. > what is the difference between a clamped down App Store with arbitrary rules, and what China does with their Great Firewall? I hope you understand the difference now!
  - matheusmoreira 4y ago
    What are you talking about? The DMCA makes it illegal to circumvent software locks.
    - ryukafalz 4y ago
      There is currently an exemption for this: > Computer programs that enable smartphones, tablets, and portable all-purpose mobile computing devices, and smart televisions to execute lawfully obtained software applications, where circumvention is accomplished for the sole purpose of enabling interoperability of such applications with computer programs on the smartphone or device or to permit removal of software from the smartphone or device; (From the exemptions section of https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Millennium_Copyright_Act https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Millennium_Copyright...) They are time limited, so this may not be renewed in the next rulemaking session. (Yes, it's a silly system.)

pknomad 4y ago

Yes. It's going to be an unpopular opinion but there's an awful lot of applications that are out there that are just hilariously outdated, terribly made, or is some form of malware. I mostly use mainstream apps (Google Maps, Bitwarden, Safari, Slack, Discord, Spotify, Canary, etc) and the times I do look for new apps I enjoy having the convenience of not having sift through awful apps that used to plague android market (and to a certain extent google playstore). App Store is not perfect by any means but I think it's superior to alternatives that are out there for users like me.

otterley 4y ago

> what is the difference between a clamped down App Store with arbitrary rules, and what China does with their Great Firewall? 1/Apple is based in a country that follows the rule of law, with checks and balances, and can be sued if it disobeys the law. 2/Apple does not have police, a military, or other means to force you to act against your will. 3/Apple does not prevent you from accessing information outside the country. 4/Apple does not coerce you to say things even if they are false. 5/Apple does not torture -- sorry, I mean "re-educate" -- Muslims. Please, don't make specious arguments comparing your inability to install some app few people need to being oppressed under the thumb of the CCP. Let's turn down the dramatic volume a little, shall we?

manuelabeledo 4y ago
That's obviously not what I meant. The CCP "great firewall" excuse is, precisely, that it will keep "bad actors" away from the homeland, or "flies" as Den Xiaoping put it. We all know what is the real reason, though. Apple uses the same excuse: security through arbitrary content control. As other users have said, I could go and buy an Android phone, or I could even use no phone, why not? But that's not the point. The point is, I'm not buying a device from Apple, I'm just leasing it, with certain conditions. And that should be, in my opinion, not only against the law, but widely considered unethical.
- otterley 4y ago
  You’re not leasing your phone: you don’t have to pay the owner for continued use of it or be forced to return it. I get that you don’t like the current state of affairs, but your analogies aren’t good ones. Ownership has never meant that you are free to do what you want with your property. You take the property as is, and sometimes there are even legal restrictions to what you can do with it. For example, I’m not allowed to build a slaughterhouse on my land.
  - manuelabeledo 4y ago
    > You’re not leasing your phone: you don’t have to pay the owner for continued use of it or be forced to return it. Call it what you want. I pay a lump sum for something that doesn't technically belong to me. And, if I break their ToS, they reserve the right to disable it. People are rightfully upset about carmakers putting common features behind a paywall. It seems appropriate that they would be too, if they were forbidden to use their car as they pleased. > Ownership has never meant that you are free to do what you want with your property. You take the property as is, and sometimes there are even legal restrictions to what you can do with it. For example, I’m not allowed to build a slaughterhouse on my land. This is absurd. Of course the rule of the law forbids you from having a slaughterhouse in your land if you don't comply with regulations. The terms of the App Store are part of a contract, not a law. Contracts may be initially binding, but they may also be illegal after review, and I personally hope they are in this regard. In other words, there is no law saying that I shall not distribute porn on the App Store, that is just Apple's prerogative. On the other hand, if you are arguing that federal and state laws are equivalent to private contracts, then your previous point about the Great Firewall and the App Store is moot.