3 ms·

Surely the "economist" would say that. They are all for more immigration, because they are all for what is good for the rich guys hiring people for low end job

by batista 15y ago

Surely the "economist" would say that. They are all for more immigration, because they are all for what is good for the rich guys hiring people for low end jobs (= labour surplus = low wages). Is it bad for the average local worker too? Has there been a controlled study? I don't see any here. Oh, and: They may be there illegally, but undocumented immigrants are still people Criminals are still people too, but they are nonetheless put in prison. Does the economist suggest an "open borders" policy? No, because they know that that would be silly. So, they just suggest not being so hard on illegal immigrants, so they can still be employed but they retain the illegal status (so they can be forced to accept lower wages). Oh, and the "we're all immigrants in the US" anyway, line of those pro-immigration. Yeah, true. They conveniently forget that their arrival was the end of the LOCAL population (native americans). So, "we're all immigrants" is just a statement of fact. It's not an argument pro immigration.

comicjk 15y ago
>Does the economist suggest an "open borders" policy? No, because they know that that would be silly. Can you explain why that would be silly - sillier than, for example, the open borders between states in the US? I'm glad you have such concern for the poorer citizens of the US. Throw in a little sympathy for the poorer citizens of Mexico and I'll be really impressed.
- batista 15y ago
  Can you explain why that would be silly - sillier than, for example, the open borders between states in the US? Because the US is a single country. The states are just different jurisdictions, but major economic, political, foreign affair, budget, etc decisions are taken at the US level. One reason you can not even think of the problems that open borders can bring, is because the US is basically isolated geographically, besides Canada and Mexico. Now, Canada is no threat to anyone, and Mexico you already had a war with and stole some of their land IIRC. If you were next to 2-6 other countries, with loaded historical issues between you, as most countries are with the exception of places like Australia etc, the case would be very different. I'm glad you have such concern for the poorer citizens of the US. Throw in a little sympathy for the poorer citizens of Mexico and I'll be really impressed. Oh, I have a lot. The thinking that migration, illegal or not, is the answer to their problems is idiotic. For the vast majority, it's not like the Nebraska waitress going to LA to become a movie star, or the Mexican geek going to the Valley to be an entrepreneur. Most people don't migrate because of a dream, but because of necessity. This, btw, is the reason poor Mexicans migrate to the US, and not Americans to Mexico. They migrate with deep sadness in order to find a better life. This life should be provided for them AT THEIR HOME, not by having them go somewhere where they have no family, no friends, and no support infrastructure (no society of their own), and no cultural roots, in order to provide cheap labor. My people have been forced to migrate en masse, as of lately, to other countries because of financial hardships. It's no fun. And we'd rather not do it. You care for the mexican workers? Support Mexico, don't have your corporations piss on them, don't support local governments that fc them over for your profits, be they corporate or of foreign influence, and then we can see about immigration.
JumpCrisscross 15y ago
Could you explain the moral argument against raising many peoples' wages by the same relative amount as one person's for their crime of not being American? I'm not being facetious; it's a widely held belief and I haven't been able to find someone who can coherently explain the assumptions and logic behind this thinking.
- batista 15y ago
  I'm not being facetious; it's a widely held belief and I haven't been able to find someone who can coherently explain the assumptions and logic behind this thinking. Here are some reasons against illegal immigration (in general, not only about wages): 1) It's not about the "crime of not being American". It's the issue of not being a citizen of the country, and having no right to be there in the first place. 2) Immigration is not a proper answer to the problems of poor countries, making them better is (and first world countries have a lot to do and a lot to stop doing for this to happen). Immigration is basically being forced to leave your home to find food/freedom/etc. Americans might like to compare it with the ease they leave, say, Texas for New York or California, but it's nothing like it. 3) The encouragement of mass immigration benefits those hiring against the workers of their place. It creates a surplus of labor that lowers wages. You might not care, because you have a fancy CS degree, or you might say "let them improve their skills and market themselves better", but the actual reality if poorer people, lower wages, trailer parks, and unemployment. Yeah, it can be "good for (big) business". But unless if you believe the "trickle down effect", it can destroy whole local communities. I've been all around South Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, California, places with lots of immigrants. I didn't see much "trickle down" effect there. 4) A country exists because it has citizens. Anybody being able to drop in arbitrarily, is not a country, it's a hostel, and can bring huge problems of regarding integration, common values, etc. Now, most "progressive" Americans have issues with the very notion of "common values", but they have the luxury to have it because, basically, all the US shares lots of common values anyway, from the strong belief in the individual, to the respect for the various amendments to the constitution, to the "American Dream", to politically correctness, etc. A gay Democrat nerd in SF has more in common to an Oklahoman redneck than they know (and that they have with a Norwegian or an Iraqi or a Venezuelan). Not to mention a shared history, from the civil war to Pearl Harbor to the glorification of the "wild west", etc. Now, imagine the made up example of millions of islamists coming to the US, and after a few decades, claiming respect for the sariah, beating up women dressed "inappropriately" (in their mind) in the streets, having honor killings, etc. You have the luxury not to think of it, because you are 10,000 miles of ocean away from such countries. Similar things have happened in other countries though. Borders were set up among other things because people like to live differently than other folks and have a place to tout their common beliefs and way of life. Like the, so-called, "American way of life".

by batista 15y ago

comicjk 15y ago

>Does the economist suggest an "open borders" policy? No, because they know that that would be silly. Can you explain why that would be silly - sillier than, for example, the open borders between states in the US? I'm glad you have such concern for the poorer citizens of the US. Throw in a little sympathy for the poorer citizens of Mexico and I'll be really impressed.

batista 15y ago
Can you explain why that would be silly - sillier than, for example, the open borders between states in the US? Because the US is a single country. The states are just different jurisdictions, but major economic, political, foreign affair, budget, etc decisions are taken at the US level. One reason you can not even think of the problems that open borders can bring, is because the US is basically isolated geographically, besides Canada and Mexico. Now, Canada is no threat to anyone, and Mexico you already had a war with and stole some of their land IIRC. If you were next to 2-6 other countries, with loaded historical issues between you, as most countries are with the exception of places like Australia etc, the case would be very different. I'm glad you have such concern for the poorer citizens of the US. Throw in a little sympathy for the poorer citizens of Mexico and I'll be really impressed. Oh, I have a lot. The thinking that migration, illegal or not, is the answer to their problems is idiotic. For the vast majority, it's not like the Nebraska waitress going to LA to become a movie star, or the Mexican geek going to the Valley to be an entrepreneur. Most people don't migrate because of a dream, but because of necessity. This, btw, is the reason poor Mexicans migrate to the US, and not Americans to Mexico. They migrate with deep sadness in order to find a better life. This life should be provided for them AT THEIR HOME, not by having them go somewhere where they have no family, no friends, and no support infrastructure (no society of their own), and no cultural roots, in order to provide cheap labor. My people have been forced to migrate en masse, as of lately, to other countries because of financial hardships. It's no fun. And we'd rather not do it. You care for the mexican workers? Support Mexico, don't have your corporations piss on them, don't support local governments that fc them over for your profits, be they corporate or of foreign influence, and then we can see about immigration.

JumpCrisscross 15y ago

Could you explain the moral argument against raising many peoples' wages by the same relative amount as one person's for their crime of not being American? I'm not being facetious; it's a widely held belief and I haven't been able to find someone who can coherently explain the assumptions and logic behind this thinking.

batista 15y ago
I'm not being facetious; it's a widely held belief and I haven't been able to find someone who can coherently explain the assumptions and logic behind this thinking. Here are some reasons against illegal immigration (in general, not only about wages): 1) It's not about the "crime of not being American". It's the issue of not being a citizen of the country, and having no right to be there in the first place. 2) Immigration is not a proper answer to the problems of poor countries, making them better is (and first world countries have a lot to do and a lot to stop doing for this to happen). Immigration is basically being forced to leave your home to find food/freedom/etc. Americans might like to compare it with the ease they leave, say, Texas for New York or California, but it's nothing like it. 3) The encouragement of mass immigration benefits those hiring against the workers of their place. It creates a surplus of labor that lowers wages. You might not care, because you have a fancy CS degree, or you might say "let them improve their skills and market themselves better", but the actual reality if poorer people, lower wages, trailer parks, and unemployment. Yeah, it can be "good for (big) business". But unless if you believe the "trickle down effect", it can destroy whole local communities. I've been all around South Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, California, places with lots of immigrants. I didn't see much "trickle down" effect there. 4) A country exists because it has citizens. Anybody being able to drop in arbitrarily, is not a country, it's a hostel, and can bring huge problems of regarding integration, common values, etc. Now, most "progressive" Americans have issues with the very notion of "common values", but they have the luxury to have it because, basically, all the US shares lots of common values anyway, from the strong belief in the individual, to the respect for the various amendments to the constitution, to the "American Dream", to politically correctness, etc. A gay Democrat nerd in SF has more in common to an Oklahoman redneck than they know (and that they have with a Norwegian or an Iraqi or a Venezuelan). Not to mention a shared history, from the civil war to Pearl Harbor to the glorification of the "wild west", etc. Now, imagine the made up example of millions of islamists coming to the US, and after a few decades, claiming respect for the sariah, beating up women dressed "inappropriately" (in their mind) in the streets, having honor killings, etc. You have the luxury not to think of it, because you are 10,000 miles of ocean away from such countries. Similar things have happened in other countries though. Borders were set up among other things because people like to live differently than other folks and have a place to tout their common beliefs and way of life. Like the, so-called, "American way of life".