5 ms·

If I was American, I would be much less concerned with China having my data than my own government, who can act against me at will.

by epups 4y ago

livelielife 4y ago
ah, but the data is digital, so both will have it. that way governments may act against you regardless of where you are, best abide by the law, citizen,
passion__desire 4y ago
You can be weaponized against your own interests through psychological manipulations. China may not have physical access to do harm to you but they do have digital access and that can do serious damage if you aren't careful.
- chrisjc 4y ago
  Moreover, it's not just about "me" and "now". In my opionion that's myopic and selfish. It's also about "we" and the future. What "I" do could be used against my family, friends, neighbors, society, etc in the future. We already see something similar happening all the time. Totalitarian dictatorships coercing foreign citizens by threatening the wellbeing of family still in the motherland.
- Jochim 4y ago
  That's an argument for banning all psychological manipulation. Banning TikTok individually, solves nothing.
cjdoc29 4y ago
On a personal level, yes, I'd be much less concerned with China having my data than my own government. On a national scale? Well, I certainly do not want an adversary with an interest in overtaking the U.S. have both data and means to manipulate the opinions of its citizens.
- unity1001 4y ago
  > with an interest in overtaking the U.S. have both data and means to manipulate the opinions of its citizens How is that any different from the US itself. People seem to have forgotten the WMD lie...
  - Mountain_Skies 4y ago
    Or the COVID lies, but most aren't willing to admit they got fooled again like they did with WMDs.
  - unethical_ban 4y ago
    One is my government, one is a hostile government. Why do you suggest they are the same? Why do you imply I approve of the US doing it too? Your argument leans on whataboutism.
    - unity1001 4y ago
      > One is my government, one is a hostile government. Why do you suggest they are the same? Your government was the one kidnapping its own citizens through 'rendition flights' totally outside the legal apparatus and holding and torturing them whenever it wanted. It still does that. Your government has power over you. Not China. If you would be concerned about 'opinion manipulation', there is still the open issue of the Iraqi WMDs lie and the entire false reality created by that very government of yours and its private sector extensions. If you are not worried about that, you would have no grounds to be worried about 'hostile' governments. And what does 'hostile' even mean? You think that China or any other country cares about what you do as a singular American? And their hostility is toward you, the random American in god knows where in the US and not instead towards your government that is openly, explicitly, directly saying that it is targeting China in total violation of the international laws? Are you aware that any such threat or open admission of intent of economic or actual warfare from a country that can follow up those threats gives a legitimate casus belli against the targeted country and triggers the Article 51 of the UN convention? Its amazing how the Americans think that they have anything in common with their government and establishment and they literally claim shared interest... > whataboutism There is nothing wrong about 'whataboutism'. Those who make moral, legal, ethical accusations have to provide an objective framework for their accustion. You cant just smear others while your own side does even worse things than what you accuse others of. Without an objective framework, any kind of moral accusation becomes a mere smear. Chinese government does not have the power to abduct you without telling anyone, hold you in an undisclosed location for however long it wants without telling anyone. The US president does. No other president and government in the world has that kind of openly legislated power. Not even any secret service anywhere has been given that power. And yet you worry about 'other governments'. This behavior pattern seems more like projecting the troubles at home to abroad to avoid cognitive dissonance than any actual concern...
JohnFen 4y ago
As an American, I'm less concerned with China having this data than I am with US corporations having this data. China has limited interest or means to harm me, personally. US corporations have plenty of interest and means.
- yadaeno 4y ago
  > China has limited interest or means to harm me. Source? They are a totalitarian government that considers the US it's #1 enemy, and has its sights on a military invasion of a peaceful democratic nation and ally in a 2-5 year horizon.
  - JohnFen 4y ago
    They do indeed. But none of that means that they care even a little bit about me, personally. Why would they? I can neither help nor hinder their efforts. Understand what I'm saying here -- I'm specifically talking about whether I'd prefer to be spied on by China or by corporations. If that's my choice, I'd prefer to be spied on by China because they don't care much about me, individually. But really, I'd prefer not to be spied on at all -- and that's my underlying point. When it comes to issues like TikTok, I'm not saying TikTok isn't a problem. I'm saying that the problem TikTok presents is not unique to them. If we are to address the problems -- and I think we should -- we should address it across the board, not just with a single company.
    - yadaeno 4y ago
      The US does not live in an isloated vaccum where it's not affected by geopolitics. Your life will be impacted, personally when China decides to invade Taiwan. I don't want to be spied on by either government, but this point you are trying to make that China has 0 influence or means to impart change in American life is incorrect.
      - JohnFen 4y ago
        > this point you are trying to make that China has 0 influence or means to impart change in American life is incorrect. That is most definitely not the point I was trying to make. I'm talking about data collection, not propaganda.
squeaky-clean 4y ago
IMO it's less about them taking your data, and more about what data they will selectively choose to show you.
- Faark 4y ago
  Source? From my understanding, tiktok leaves the algorithm highly unconstrained in figuring out what the user wants, compared to its domestic counterpart. Yes, this alone might end up bad, but any restrictions would be exactly the political nightmare we complain about
bigtex88 4y ago
The government isn't going to come after you. You can stop living your weird libertarian fever dream. That's not a thing that happens. The government is not just going to randomly pick out epups and then do something nefarious with the data.

If I was American, I would be much less concerned with China having my data than my own government, who can act against me at will.

by epups 4y ago

If I was American, I would be much less concerned with China having my data than my own government, who can act against me at will.

livelielife 4y ago

ah, but the data is digital, so both will have it. that way governments may act against you regardless of where you are, best abide by the law, citizen,

passion__desire 4y ago

You can be weaponized against your own interests through psychological manipulations. China may not have physical access to do harm to you but they do have digital access and that can do serious damage if you aren't careful.

chrisjc 4y ago
Moreover, it's not just about "me" and "now". In my opionion that's myopic and selfish. It's also about "we" and the future. What "I" do could be used against my family, friends, neighbors, society, etc in the future. We already see something similar happening all the time. Totalitarian dictatorships coercing foreign citizens by threatening the wellbeing of family still in the motherland.
Jochim 4y ago
That's an argument for banning all psychological manipulation. Banning TikTok individually, solves nothing.

cjdoc29 4y ago

On a personal level, yes, I'd be much less concerned with China having my data than my own government. On a national scale? Well, I certainly do not want an adversary with an interest in overtaking the U.S. have both data and means to manipulate the opinions of its citizens.

unity1001 4y ago
> with an interest in overtaking the U.S. have both data and means to manipulate the opinions of its citizens How is that any different from the US itself. People seem to have forgotten the WMD lie...
- Mountain_Skies 4y ago
  Or the COVID lies, but most aren't willing to admit they got fooled again like they did with WMDs.
- unethical_ban 4y ago
  One is my government, one is a hostile government. Why do you suggest they are the same? Why do you imply I approve of the US doing it too? Your argument leans on whataboutism.
  - unity1001 4y ago
    > One is my government, one is a hostile government. Why do you suggest they are the same? Your government was the one kidnapping its own citizens through 'rendition flights' totally outside the legal apparatus and holding and torturing them whenever it wanted. It still does that. Your government has power over you. Not China. If you would be concerned about 'opinion manipulation', there is still the open issue of the Iraqi WMDs lie and the entire false reality created by that very government of yours and its private sector extensions. If you are not worried about that, you would have no grounds to be worried about 'hostile' governments. And what does 'hostile' even mean? You think that China or any other country cares about what you do as a singular American? And their hostility is toward you, the random American in god knows where in the US and not instead towards your government that is openly, explicitly, directly saying that it is targeting China in total violation of the international laws? Are you aware that any such threat or open admission of intent of economic or actual warfare from a country that can follow up those threats gives a legitimate casus belli against the targeted country and triggers the Article 51 of the UN convention? Its amazing how the Americans think that they have anything in common with their government and establishment and they literally claim shared interest... > whataboutism There is nothing wrong about 'whataboutism'. Those who make moral, legal, ethical accusations have to provide an objective framework for their accustion. You cant just smear others while your own side does even worse things than what you accuse others of. Without an objective framework, any kind of moral accusation becomes a mere smear. Chinese government does not have the power to abduct you without telling anyone, hold you in an undisclosed location for however long it wants without telling anyone. The US president does. No other president and government in the world has that kind of openly legislated power. Not even any secret service anywhere has been given that power. And yet you worry about 'other governments'. This behavior pattern seems more like projecting the troubles at home to abroad to avoid cognitive dissonance than any actual concern...

JohnFen 4y ago

As an American, I'm less concerned with China having this data than I am with US corporations having this data. China has limited interest or means to harm me, personally. US corporations have plenty of interest and means.

yadaeno 4y ago
> China has limited interest or means to harm me. Source? They are a totalitarian government that considers the US it's #1 enemy, and has its sights on a military invasion of a peaceful democratic nation and ally in a 2-5 year horizon.
- JohnFen 4y ago
  They do indeed. But none of that means that they care even a little bit about me, personally. Why would they? I can neither help nor hinder their efforts. Understand what I'm saying here -- I'm specifically talking about whether I'd prefer to be spied on by China or by corporations. If that's my choice, I'd prefer to be spied on by China because they don't care much about me, individually. But really, I'd prefer not to be spied on at all -- and that's my underlying point. When it comes to issues like TikTok, I'm not saying TikTok isn't a problem. I'm saying that the problem TikTok presents is not unique to them. If we are to address the problems -- and I think we should -- we should address it across the board, not just with a single company.
  - yadaeno 4y ago
    The US does not live in an isloated vaccum where it's not affected by geopolitics. Your life will be impacted, personally when China decides to invade Taiwan. I don't want to be spied on by either government, but this point you are trying to make that China has 0 influence or means to impart change in American life is incorrect.
    - JohnFen 4y ago
      > this point you are trying to make that China has 0 influence or means to impart change in American life is incorrect. That is most definitely not the point I was trying to make. I'm talking about data collection, not propaganda.

squeaky-clean 4y ago

IMO it's less about them taking your data, and more about what data they will selectively choose to show you.

Faark 4y ago
Source? From my understanding, tiktok leaves the algorithm highly unconstrained in figuring out what the user wants, compared to its domestic counterpart. Yes, this alone might end up bad, but any restrictions would be exactly the political nightmare we complain about

bigtex88 4y ago

The government isn't going to come after you. You can stop living your weird libertarian fever dream. That's not a thing that happens. The government is not just going to randomly pick out epups and then do something nefarious with the data.