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I suspect the author and I agree on the general idea, but the argument seemed forced. If I’m interviewing a chef for a Mexican restaurant, of course I want them

I suspect the author and I agree on the general idea, but the argument seemed forced. If I’m interviewing a chef for a Mexican restaurant, of course I want them to cook for me. But I might ask them to draw stuff on a whiteboard, like: a. A shopping list and schedule b. diagram the layout of a kitchen used for making Mexican food c. A recipe for Mexican food The OP’s story is mixing two different things: Questions outside of the domain and the whiteboard vs. programming. I think they’re orthogonal. For example, what if he was asked to go into the kitchen and prepare Creme Brulée? Clearly, that would be as bad as being asked about the ingredients.

trustfundbaby 15y ago
But I might ask them to draw stuff on a whiteboard, like: a. A shopping list and schedule b. diagram the layout of a kitchen used for making Mexican food c. A recipe for Mexican food --------- Not if you actually knew what you were doing. I'm no chef, but I seen a lot of cooking shows (I know, I really earned my stripes hunh?) and they never ask them to diagram anything. What they do get them to do is cook ... a lot ... and also get assessed on they way they manage their time, a team and a kitchen. We can email some actual chefs and put money on it if you want, but I'm pretty darned sure that if you were trying to hire a really good chef and asked them to diagram stuff for you, they'd think you were weird. Now I did have the poor judgement to watch seasons one and two of Project Runway, a reality show that is like "Survivor" for Fashion designers, and they did have to sketch their designs often, you know why? because Fashion designers actually do a lot of sketching. So yes, lets get back to the basics ... whiteboarding has its place, but if you're trying to hire someone that is going to be building software for you 40 hours a week, there's a whole other range of things you can look into instead of spending time seeing if they can implement a doubly linked list on your dry erase board with a crappy marker, when they'll never have to screw with one while working on your software.
- raganwald 15y ago
  Most of your post is excellent and thought-provoking, thank-you, +|1. So yes, lets get back to the basics ... whiteboarding has its place, but if you're trying to hire someone that is going to be building software for you 40 hours a week, there's a whole other range of things you can look into instead of spending time seeing if they can implement a doubly linked list on your dry erase board with a crappy marker, when they'll never have to screw with one while working on your software. This is, to put it politely, a “straw man.” There are zillions of whiteboards in software development offices, because whiteboarding is part of our job. Many places paint the walls in whiteboard paint so everything’s a whiteboard. Which speaks to the exact argument you made a paragraph earlier: Asking people to whiteboard things is appropriate because software developers sketch things ALL THE TIME. Now as to doubly-linked lists, you can’t cherry-pick an inappropriate question and blame it on whiteboards. Asking someone to whiteboard a doubly-linked list has about as much value as asking them to implement it in code. It’s fine for FizzBuzz testing, but of course we don’t implement doubly linked lists 40 hours a week, so beyond a simple filter, it’s a bad question. There are good whiteboard questions, and what they all have in common is that implementing a certain idea in code would take too long and/or obscure the underlying idea with accidental complexity. We work with Operational Transformation. It’s an algorithm that diagrams easily, but the code can be challenging to follow if you don’t start with a basic understanding. If you were interviewing for a job that involved working with collaborative editing, and you were asked to explain some ideas about OT in a text document or on a whiteboard, would you really ask for a text editor? p.s., the crappy marker comment is ridiculous. While it was somewhat entertaining in the story, I cannot take seriously the implied claim that all companies with whiteboards give crappy markers to interviewees. Unless there is some sort of conspiracy to look for candidates who bring their own markers to interviews.
  - trustfundbaby 15y ago
    the crappy marker comment is ridiculous. While it was somewhat entertaining in the story, I cannot take seriously the implied claim that all companies with whiteboards give crappy markers to interviewees ----------------- you take me too seriously sir :) Asking people to whiteboard things is appropriate because software developers sketch things ALL THE TIME. --------------------------------- Right, but what do they sketch. is it code? or is it a myriad of other things like ui's, application flow. object/db schemas? etc? Developers don't spend all day whiteboarding, so why should an entire interview process consist of that? I'm not saying that you're saying that, I'm just getting back to the central point of the original article Now as to doubly-linked lists, you can’t cherry-pick an inappropriate question and blame it on whiteboards. Asking someone to whiteboard a doubly-linked list has about as much value as asking them to implement it in code. It’s fine for FizzBuzz testing, but of course we don’t implement doubly linked lists 40 hours a week, so beyond a simple filter, it’s a bad question -------- We're not disagreeing on that, but in the article that is a complaint. That a CRUD web application shop (for example) is pulling you into an interview and asking about compilers and linked lists when its not related to what they do from day to day (I exaggerate with the compilers, but you get my point right?) There are good whiteboard questions, and what they all have in common is that implementing a certain idea in code would take too long and/or obscure the underlying idea with accidental complexity. ------------------ We agree. Like I said, white boarding has its place, I just zeroed in on your chef remark because it seemed a little odd to me that you'd suggest that even chefs, who hardly every use white boards (to my knowledge) would have a use for whiteboarding/sketching. In an (kinda) related note, I think software companies could do with a bit of humility. A good number of places I've interviewed at are disrespectful of the people who come in to interview with them and tend to treat them with disdain until they show they are clearly smarter than they are. I think theres a part of hacker culture that encourages that sort of thing, but the market is tight, and getting the best people isn't a case of just putting up a help wanted ad, and having people jump through hoops any longer, because they have other options.
    - raganwald 15y ago
      you take me too seriously sir :) I failed to impart my lack of reverence with my comment about filtering. The sick thing is, there used to be trick interviews where the interviewer would deliberately not ask the person to sit down, or whatever, and test to see whether they “take command” of the situation. The correct response to a crappy marker is probably to ask if their server infrastructure is as good as their software design tooling. You have another fantastic point: In an (kinda) related note, I think software companies could do with a bit of humility. A good number of places I've interviewed at are disrespectful of the people who come in to interview with them and tend to treat them with disdain until they show they are clearly smarter than they are. I think theres a part of hacker culture that encourages that sort of thing, but the market is tight, and getting the best people isn't a case of just putting up a help wanted ad, and having people jump through hoops any longer, because they have other options. This is a negative part of some development cultures, and it cuts both ways. I have seen some arrogant shops, and some arrogant people coming in for an interview. I don’t want to lick your boots or have mine licked. If the premise isn’t “Hey, we might enjoy working together as colleagues with mutual respect,” why are we going through the exercise?
bascule 15y ago
It's a hard metaphor to pull off. Cut my some slack :) The real point I'm trying to make is just if you want to test somebody's ability to write code, give them a computer, don't make them code on a whiteboard. If you're actually using a whiteboard to assist in visualizing something or to help explain a problem, great! But that's quite different from being asked to write down code.
- raganwald 15y ago
  Sorry, it just so happens I’m an expert in failing to pull metaphors off :-) I did once pull off a great interview metaphor, but I did so by plagiarizing someone else’s hard work: http://weblog.raganwald.com/2006/07/hiring-juggler_02.html http://weblog.raganwald.com/2006/07/hiring-juggler_02.html Like I said, I think we agree on a great deal about this :-D
- ctdonath 15y ago
  Last interview before my current position, the group of simultaneous interviewers did the usual "on this whiteboard, write a program to do X." I waved off the pen, pulled out my notebook computer, started typing, and said "don't mind me, just continue on" and wrote the program while fielding other questions, and asking for clarifications on requirements. The offer was not long in coming.

trustfundbaby 15y ago

But I might ask them to draw stuff on a whiteboard, like: a. A shopping list and schedule b. diagram the layout of a kitchen used for making Mexican food c. A recipe for Mexican food --------- Not if you actually knew what you were doing. I'm no chef, but I seen a lot of cooking shows (I know, I really earned my stripes hunh?) and they never ask them to diagram anything. What they do get them to do is cook ... a lot ... and also get assessed on they way they manage their time, a team and a kitchen. We can email some actual chefs and put money on it if you want, but I'm pretty darned sure that if you were trying to hire a really good chef and asked them to diagram stuff for you, they'd think you were weird. Now I did have the poor judgement to watch seasons one and two of Project Runway, a reality show that is like "Survivor" for Fashion designers, and they did have to sketch their designs often, you know why? because Fashion designers actually do a lot of sketching. So yes, lets get back to the basics ... whiteboarding has its place, but if you're trying to hire someone that is going to be building software for you 40 hours a week, there's a whole other range of things you can look into instead of spending time seeing if they can implement a doubly linked list on your dry erase board with a crappy marker, when they'll never have to screw with one while working on your software.

raganwald 15y ago
Most of your post is excellent and thought-provoking, thank-you, +|1. So yes, lets get back to the basics ... whiteboarding has its place, but if you're trying to hire someone that is going to be building software for you 40 hours a week, there's a whole other range of things you can look into instead of spending time seeing if they can implement a doubly linked list on your dry erase board with a crappy marker, when they'll never have to screw with one while working on your software. This is, to put it politely, a “straw man.” There are zillions of whiteboards in software development offices, because whiteboarding is part of our job. Many places paint the walls in whiteboard paint so everything’s a whiteboard. Which speaks to the exact argument you made a paragraph earlier: Asking people to whiteboard things is appropriate because software developers sketch things ALL THE TIME. Now as to doubly-linked lists, you can’t cherry-pick an inappropriate question and blame it on whiteboards. Asking someone to whiteboard a doubly-linked list has about as much value as asking them to implement it in code. It’s fine for FizzBuzz testing, but of course we don’t implement doubly linked lists 40 hours a week, so beyond a simple filter, it’s a bad question. There are good whiteboard questions, and what they all have in common is that implementing a certain idea in code would take too long and/or obscure the underlying idea with accidental complexity. We work with Operational Transformation. It’s an algorithm that diagrams easily, but the code can be challenging to follow if you don’t start with a basic understanding. If you were interviewing for a job that involved working with collaborative editing, and you were asked to explain some ideas about OT in a text document or on a whiteboard, would you really ask for a text editor? p.s., the crappy marker comment is ridiculous. While it was somewhat entertaining in the story, I cannot take seriously the implied claim that all companies with whiteboards give crappy markers to interviewees. Unless there is some sort of conspiracy to look for candidates who bring their own markers to interviews.
- trustfundbaby 15y ago
  the crappy marker comment is ridiculous. While it was somewhat entertaining in the story, I cannot take seriously the implied claim that all companies with whiteboards give crappy markers to interviewees ----------------- you take me too seriously sir :) Asking people to whiteboard things is appropriate because software developers sketch things ALL THE TIME. --------------------------------- Right, but what do they sketch. is it code? or is it a myriad of other things like ui's, application flow. object/db schemas? etc? Developers don't spend all day whiteboarding, so why should an entire interview process consist of that? I'm not saying that you're saying that, I'm just getting back to the central point of the original article Now as to doubly-linked lists, you can’t cherry-pick an inappropriate question and blame it on whiteboards. Asking someone to whiteboard a doubly-linked list has about as much value as asking them to implement it in code. It’s fine for FizzBuzz testing, but of course we don’t implement doubly linked lists 40 hours a week, so beyond a simple filter, it’s a bad question -------- We're not disagreeing on that, but in the article that is a complaint. That a CRUD web application shop (for example) is pulling you into an interview and asking about compilers and linked lists when its not related to what they do from day to day (I exaggerate with the compilers, but you get my point right?) There are good whiteboard questions, and what they all have in common is that implementing a certain idea in code would take too long and/or obscure the underlying idea with accidental complexity. ------------------ We agree. Like I said, white boarding has its place, I just zeroed in on your chef remark because it seemed a little odd to me that you'd suggest that even chefs, who hardly every use white boards (to my knowledge) would have a use for whiteboarding/sketching. In an (kinda) related note, I think software companies could do with a bit of humility. A good number of places I've interviewed at are disrespectful of the people who come in to interview with them and tend to treat them with disdain until they show they are clearly smarter than they are. I think theres a part of hacker culture that encourages that sort of thing, but the market is tight, and getting the best people isn't a case of just putting up a help wanted ad, and having people jump through hoops any longer, because they have other options.
  - raganwald 15y ago
    you take me too seriously sir :) I failed to impart my lack of reverence with my comment about filtering. The sick thing is, there used to be trick interviews where the interviewer would deliberately not ask the person to sit down, or whatever, and test to see whether they “take command” of the situation. The correct response to a crappy marker is probably to ask if their server infrastructure is as good as their software design tooling. You have another fantastic point: In an (kinda) related note, I think software companies could do with a bit of humility. A good number of places I've interviewed at are disrespectful of the people who come in to interview with them and tend to treat them with disdain until they show they are clearly smarter than they are. I think theres a part of hacker culture that encourages that sort of thing, but the market is tight, and getting the best people isn't a case of just putting up a help wanted ad, and having people jump through hoops any longer, because they have other options. This is a negative part of some development cultures, and it cuts both ways. I have seen some arrogant shops, and some arrogant people coming in for an interview. I don’t want to lick your boots or have mine licked. If the premise isn’t “Hey, we might enjoy working together as colleagues with mutual respect,” why are we going through the exercise?

bascule 15y ago

It's a hard metaphor to pull off. Cut my some slack :) The real point I'm trying to make is just if you want to test somebody's ability to write code, give them a computer, don't make them code on a whiteboard. If you're actually using a whiteboard to assist in visualizing something or to help explain a problem, great! But that's quite different from being asked to write down code.

raganwald 15y ago
Sorry, it just so happens I’m an expert in failing to pull metaphors off :-) I did once pull off a great interview metaphor, but I did so by plagiarizing someone else’s hard work: http://weblog.raganwald.com/2006/07/hiring-juggler_02.html http://weblog.raganwald.com/2006/07/hiring-juggler_02.html Like I said, I think we agree on a great deal about this :-D
ctdonath 15y ago
Last interview before my current position, the group of simultaneous interviewers did the usual "on this whiteboard, write a program to do X." I waved off the pen, pulled out my notebook computer, started typing, and said "don't mind me, just continue on" and wrote the program while fielding other questions, and asking for clarifications on requirements. The offer was not long in coming.