4 ms·

> As another commenter mentioned this includes a lot of gang stuff I wonder what these stats would look like for legal vs illegal weapons. The fact that nobod

> As another commenter mentioned this includes a lot of gang stuff I wonder what these stats would look like for legal vs illegal weapons. The fact that nobody seems to be publishing these figures should be a pretty good indicator of what they would tell us...

mbauman 4y ago
... or maybe — just maybe — they are figures that are impossible to determine in any sort of comprehensive or reliable manner. It's not a conspiracy.
- 908B64B197 4y ago
  > impossible to determine Not really. For homicide cases the weapons are often recovered.
- dsfyu404ed 4y ago
  Take what you can get reliably, use it as a sample and try and extrapolate out making adjustments if the sample population differs from the overall population. This is SOP in god knows how many fields.
  - MrJohz 4y ago
    > making adjustments if the sample population differs from the overall population. This feels like a step you can't just handwave away as step three of three. To quote the meme, it's a bit of a "draw the rest of the fucking owl" situation. Extrapolation is hard, and there are very good reasons not to do it willy nilly. Where it is standardised in other fields, it's usually because researchers have already figured out good ways to extrapolate the data and proven the the extrapolation appears to be valid (and even then, usually only within limited bounds).
FullyFunctional 4y ago
Which if any fraction of the “illegal” weapon didn’t start out as “legal”? Thus the distinction is pointless.
- taxyz 4y ago
  Depends on which area of the country that you are in but along the southern border a lot of gangs bring in guns. Then there is the fact that our incompetent government does things like Operation Fast and Furious (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATF_gunwalking_scandal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATF_gunwalking_scandal) and, no, the ATF using private businesses to funnel guns into the hands of people who would not otherwise be able to acquire them is not the same as firearms that were once legal.
  - kevviiinn 4y ago
    Bring in guns? From where
    - taxyz 4y ago
      When you see literal shoot outs in the streets between the Sinaloa cartel and the Mexican armed forces, you don't honestly think the cartel members drove to AZ and walked into a Cabela's, do you? Just like drugs, humans, etc, guns are also trafficked. The vast majority of gun homicides are done with handguns and largely gang related. Not all of those guns weren't at one point legal guns in the US - where the gang member either stole them from a law abiding citizen or walked into a gun store. All handguns in the US require background checks and you have to be 21 years old to buy.
      - kevviiinn 4y ago
        The way the comment was phrased makes it sound like they're bringing in the guns from outside the country.
        taxyz 4y ago
        I think the problem is multi-faceted: - some guns were legally acquired in the US then stolen - the government has done gun running operations from the US into Mexico and then some of the guns have ended up being used in crimes back in the US - some gun running does acquire guns outside of the US and brings them in The thing I am objecting to is the notion that if an illegally used gun was used in a crime it must have once been a legally possessed gun, and (the implicit policy prescription) that the way to curb illegal gun possession is by limiting legal gun possession. While that last part probably tracks, because of my ideological beliefs, I'd rather we exhaust all other options before limiting legal gun ownership. And even then, again because ideology/convictions, curbing legal gun ownership is probably not a thought I'd entertain at the ballot box.

mbauman 4y ago

... or maybe — just maybe — they are figures that are impossible to determine in any sort of comprehensive or reliable manner. It's not a conspiracy.

908B64B197 4y ago
> impossible to determine Not really. For homicide cases the weapons are often recovered.
dsfyu404ed 4y ago
Take what you can get reliably, use it as a sample and try and extrapolate out making adjustments if the sample population differs from the overall population. This is SOP in god knows how many fields.
- MrJohz 4y ago
  > making adjustments if the sample population differs from the overall population. This feels like a step you can't just handwave away as step three of three. To quote the meme, it's a bit of a "draw the rest of the fucking owl" situation. Extrapolation is hard, and there are very good reasons not to do it willy nilly. Where it is standardised in other fields, it's usually because researchers have already figured out good ways to extrapolate the data and proven the the extrapolation appears to be valid (and even then, usually only within limited bounds).

FullyFunctional 4y ago

Which if any fraction of the “illegal” weapon didn’t start out as “legal”? Thus the distinction is pointless.

taxyz 4y ago
Depends on which area of the country that you are in but along the southern border a lot of gangs bring in guns. Then there is the fact that our incompetent government does things like Operation Fast and Furious (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATF_gunwalking_scandal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATF_gunwalking_scandal) and, no, the ATF using private businesses to funnel guns into the hands of people who would not otherwise be able to acquire them is not the same as firearms that were once legal.
- kevviiinn 4y ago
  Bring in guns? From where
  - taxyz 4y ago
    When you see literal shoot outs in the streets between the Sinaloa cartel and the Mexican armed forces, you don't honestly think the cartel members drove to AZ and walked into a Cabela's, do you? Just like drugs, humans, etc, guns are also trafficked. The vast majority of gun homicides are done with handguns and largely gang related. Not all of those guns weren't at one point legal guns in the US - where the gang member either stole them from a law abiding citizen or walked into a gun store. All handguns in the US require background checks and you have to be 21 years old to buy.
    - kevviiinn 4y ago
      The way the comment was phrased makes it sound like they're bringing in the guns from outside the country.
      - taxyz 4y ago
        I think the problem is multi-faceted: - some guns were legally acquired in the US then stolen - the government has done gun running operations from the US into Mexico and then some of the guns have ended up being used in crimes back in the US - some gun running does acquire guns outside of the US and brings them in The thing I am objecting to is the notion that if an illegally used gun was used in a crime it must have once been a legally possessed gun, and (the implicit policy prescription) that the way to curb illegal gun possession is by limiting legal gun possession. While that last part probably tracks, because of my ideological beliefs, I'd rather we exhaust all other options before limiting legal gun ownership. And even then, again because ideology/convictions, curbing legal gun ownership is probably not a thought I'd entertain at the ballot box.