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"Job security" seems like an unfair way to describe backwards compatibility. Most of the quirks of the Web platform are due to it having some of the strictest b

"Job security" seems like an unfair way to describe backwards compatibility. Most of the quirks of the Web platform are due to it having some of the strictest backwards compatibility standards of any software. For the most part, you can view a GeoCities site from 2005 in the latest Chrome browser and it will render the same as it did 18 years ago, assuming all the assets are still loadable. IMO, the Web as a platform has done a great job maintaining this standard, and it's only been in recent years that all the browsers became "evergreen" and are able to add new changes at a rapid pace. I definitely wouldn't hold this against the people responsible for maintaining (!) the CSS spec. Now, should there be some entirely new design language that starts fresh without any of these assumptions, and free from technical debt? Well, maybe, but then again that's kind of what each new version of the CSS spec does when it introduces new rules, which is much easier now with all browsers evergreen. (edited to replace "green field" with "evergreen")

tannhaeuser 4y ago
I'm willing to concede backwards compat, but how is browser tech "green field" when we haven't seen new browsers developed from scratch for well over a decade (^1) and have even lost two long-standing browser codebases (MS, Opera) during that time period? ^1 with laudable exceptions that haven't reached any reportable status/alignment with specs yet after years of work however, and possibly never will as browser tech scope expands every day like the frontier of the universe is expanding faster than the speed of light
- chatmasta 4y ago
  I think I might be misremembering the term. It's not "greenfield," but "green" something, and is used to refer to browsers updating relatively simultaneously, which only began in the past few years. EDIT: I love ChatGPT. The term I meant to use is "evergreen." It refers to browsers that automatically update in the background, so everyone is using the latest version of their chosen browser. I'll edit my original comment.
  - tannhaeuser 4y ago
    Ah ok, you mean evergreen, in that case everything is ok in browser land ;) > it's only been in recent years that all the browsers became "evergreen" and are able to add new changes at a rapid pace The "rapid pace" is due to basically only three browsers left, and the only winner is the browser cartel we're enduring.
    - chatmasta 4y ago
      > the only winner is the browser cartel As a user, I sympathize and agree wholeheartedly with this argument. But as a developer, I feel like one of the winners. I certainly don't miss the days of adding complexity to my build tooling or limiting which features I can use, just because I still need to support some inexplicably popular browser that last received updates half a decade ago. I'm not sure what the answer is, but perhaps some crazy person out there should consider building their own browser from scratch. That's the only way we'll get more open competition in the market...
WillAdams 4y ago
Maybe, but I'm looking at my brand-new Samsung Galaxy Book 3 Pro 360, and lamenting that it is impossible for me to select text using a stylus in a natural fashion in the popular web browsers. https://support.google.com/chrome/thread/207650291?hl=en https://support.google.com/chrome/thread/207650291?hl=en https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/questions/1409055 https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/questions/1409055 and while Seamonkey and K-meleon work properly, they aren't usable with Discourse, which is a big part of what I need to do on the web. If backwards compatibility is so great, why can't I select text as I've been accustomed to since Go Corp. PenPoint and Windows for Pen Computing? It's not even good UI from a discoverability standpoint --- I handed a stylus and my Samsung Galaxy Book 12 running Windows build 1703 to a tech at Best Buy and asked them to select text and they were successful, but when prompted to select text on a similar system running Windows 11 they were stymied.
- chatmasta 4y ago
  Aren't you describing forwards compatibility? The Web is "backwards compatible" in the sense that old sites render on new browsers. But it sounds like you're describing new sites failing to render on old browsers (in the case of Discourse). For your stylus issue, that is slightly different since it's about input devices, but it still sounds like a forward compatibility issue to me, but I guess you could argue it either way.
  - WillAdams 4y ago
    I want to be able to select text as I have since Go Corp.'s PenPoint. When using my Samsung Galaxy Book 12 running Windows Build 1703 to browse the web, it works to select the text in a natural fashion, no press-hold and fiddling w/ extension hooks necessary. I just want a contemporary browser on Windows 11 w/ a stylus to work thus --- what do I need to do? I've tried disabling Windows Ink, and I can't find any flags/settings in Chrome or Edge or Firefox which have a meaningful effect.
    - chatmasta 4y ago
      I empathize with your frustration, but it sounds like an issue with your operating system and/or hardware vendor. I suppose it's fair to expect Chrome/Firefox to allow you to configure your input device to act like this, too. But the problem is not with the Web platform or any standard - it's some combination of your operating system and browser that's deciding how to translate "tap and hold" into Web API events like onClick or onTouch (which are notoriously annoying to implement cross-platform).

tannhaeuser 4y ago

I'm willing to concede backwards compat, but how is browser tech "green field" when we haven't seen new browsers developed from scratch for well over a decade (^1) and have even lost two long-standing browser codebases (MS, Opera) during that time period? ^1 with laudable exceptions that haven't reached any reportable status/alignment with specs yet after years of work however, and possibly never will as browser tech scope expands every day like the frontier of the universe is expanding faster than the speed of light

chatmasta 4y ago
I think I might be misremembering the term. It's not "greenfield," but "green" something, and is used to refer to browsers updating relatively simultaneously, which only began in the past few years. EDIT: I love ChatGPT. The term I meant to use is "evergreen." It refers to browsers that automatically update in the background, so everyone is using the latest version of their chosen browser. I'll edit my original comment.
- tannhaeuser 4y ago
  Ah ok, you mean evergreen, in that case everything is ok in browser land ;) > it's only been in recent years that all the browsers became "evergreen" and are able to add new changes at a rapid pace The "rapid pace" is due to basically only three browsers left, and the only winner is the browser cartel we're enduring.
  - chatmasta 4y ago
    > the only winner is the browser cartel As a user, I sympathize and agree wholeheartedly with this argument. But as a developer, I feel like one of the winners. I certainly don't miss the days of adding complexity to my build tooling or limiting which features I can use, just because I still need to support some inexplicably popular browser that last received updates half a decade ago. I'm not sure what the answer is, but perhaps some crazy person out there should consider building their own browser from scratch. That's the only way we'll get more open competition in the market...

WillAdams 4y ago

Maybe, but I'm looking at my brand-new Samsung Galaxy Book 3 Pro 360, and lamenting that it is impossible for me to select text using a stylus in a natural fashion in the popular web browsers. https://support.google.com/chrome/thread/207650291?hl=en https://support.google.com/chrome/thread/207650291?hl=en https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/questions/1409055 https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/questions/1409055 and while Seamonkey and K-meleon work properly, they aren't usable with Discourse, which is a big part of what I need to do on the web. If backwards compatibility is so great, why can't I select text as I've been accustomed to since Go Corp. PenPoint and Windows for Pen Computing? It's not even good UI from a discoverability standpoint --- I handed a stylus and my Samsung Galaxy Book 12 running Windows build 1703 to a tech at Best Buy and asked them to select text and they were successful, but when prompted to select text on a similar system running Windows 11 they were stymied.

chatmasta 4y ago
Aren't you describing forwards compatibility? The Web is "backwards compatible" in the sense that old sites render on new browsers. But it sounds like you're describing new sites failing to render on old browsers (in the case of Discourse). For your stylus issue, that is slightly different since it's about input devices, but it still sounds like a forward compatibility issue to me, but I guess you could argue it either way.
- WillAdams 4y ago
  I want to be able to select text as I have since Go Corp.'s PenPoint. When using my Samsung Galaxy Book 12 running Windows Build 1703 to browse the web, it works to select the text in a natural fashion, no press-hold and fiddling w/ extension hooks necessary. I just want a contemporary browser on Windows 11 w/ a stylus to work thus --- what do I need to do? I've tried disabling Windows Ink, and I can't find any flags/settings in Chrome or Edge or Firefox which have a meaningful effect.
  - chatmasta 4y ago
    I empathize with your frustration, but it sounds like an issue with your operating system and/or hardware vendor. I suppose it's fair to expect Chrome/Firefox to allow you to configure your input device to act like this, too. But the problem is not with the Web platform or any standard - it's some combination of your operating system and browser that's deciding how to translate "tap and hold" into Web API events like onClick or onTouch (which are notoriously annoying to implement cross-platform).