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> Poland had called the law unrealistic and said it risked increasing car prices. 12 years is enough time to heavily invest in public transport so that most pe

> Poland had called the law unrealistic and said it risked increasing car prices. 12 years is enough time to heavily invest in public transport so that most people won't need a car at all, then increased car prices won't matter....

New_California 4y ago
But that would be a regress of civilization, not progress! The civilization progress is to have much more private transport and also somewhat more public transport.
- HPsquared 4y ago
  Some people bemoan cars as a 20th-century anachronism. They forget that trains/trams/buses are from the 19th century and were superseded by cars. The e-scooter for hire is truly a 21st-century innovation, though. That, and the self-driving car.
  - mantas 4y ago
    While private horse transport did exist for hundreds of years before that. Yes, it was slow and going longer distances was expensive. Yet the idea of personal transit is very natural.
fruit2020 4y ago
Thx for telling me what I need :) Only the rich will need a car
spaniard89277 4y ago
That's impossible to achieve. Not in 12 not in 50. It's not possible to cover with public transport all the places where cars can go. It's not capital nor operationally possible. What we will have is another strong wave of population concentrating in cities. Any economic activity outside of beaten paths will be very expensive. Because we are freaking retarded with housing in the west, people will lose the freedom private cars can give (because for most modal income people in europe, electric cars are simply not feasible), prices will increase even more. This happening while we have to deal with ageing and climate change, thus modal incomes will become efectively poor. Millions of rent slaves who have no savings and purchasing power, nor ability to scape because they can't move to live elsewhere where prices are lower, and commute to their job. Of course a combination of market + planning could, potentially solve this (kind of). But it's not going to happen because in Europe pensioners and near-to-be-pensioners rule everything, and they are so selfish and so short-sighted that they will dry public budgets until they collapse the system. The future of Europe is basically set in stone. France and Spain are very clear examples of what's ahead for everyone else. France on how a good chunk of the population is completely stupid and blind to the problem, and Spain on how politicians are willing to sacrifice a country to please pensioners. It's sad, but it is what it is.
- LeonidasXIV 4y ago
  > That's impossible to achieve. Not in 12 not in 50. It's not possible to cover with public transport all the places where cars can go. It's not capital nor operationally possible. It doesn't have to. A lot of population is urban and curbing car use in cities will be a massive improvement. So would proper train infrastructure to get between cities.
  - spaniard89277 4y ago
    A lot of the economic activity needed to sustain cities happen elsewhere. Like farming, for example. But you also need wood, all kinds of rocks, sands, etc. It's simply not feasible.
- ben_w 4y ago
  > It's not possible to cover with public transport all the places where cars can go. OP said "most" not "all". Rental cars for the occasional exceptions, ownership for whoever has to use them regularly, that's still basically fine. > because for most modal income people in europe, electric cars are simply not feasible Purchase price, or price per km? Because that's a very important difference. Electric is already better on the latter, even if battery costs fail to get cheaper with more scale.
  - favsq 4y ago
    >Rental cars for the occasional exceptions, ownership for whoever has to use them regularly, that's still basically fine. I'm really looking forward to the government knowing and controlling where I can go!
    - ben_w 4y ago
      The latter is not causally connected to the former.
      - favsq 4y ago
        oh we are in a covid lockdown. you can't get on this bus! oh it says here you have emitted a lot of co2 this year. you can't rent this car until next year! oh you were in an anti-goverment demonstration a few months ago so we know that you are headed to another one. you can't move from your 15-minute city! you really think these are hypotheticals?
ben_w 4y ago
I hope so, but I'd caution against just treating national economics as scaled up personal economic. Whoever makes the factory for the electric busses needs to talk to whoever makes the factories that make the batteries, who in turn need to talk to the miners, who might be anywhere in the world so you need to be confident about regional geopolitical concerns… Governments do this all the time, I'm sure it will be fine; but the details don't really fit into a comment box.
sdfgdfghj 4y ago
Public transport won't substitute the need or desire for private cars. Improving public transport's impact will plateau at some point because people will always value the privacy and benefits of using their own private car. You will never be able to create transport system where people take a bus in front of their door step, to the grocery store and back on demand.
- black3r 4y ago
  You don't need to take a bus to the grocery store if said grocery store is itself in 5 minute walking distance from your doorstep (or have said groceries delivered)... I buy 90% of my own groceries from one of the 3 stores on my street or using deliveries, only take the bus for the rest, usually max twice per month and then I don't really mind that the bus only comes once in 15 minutes instead of "on demand"...
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

New_California 4y ago

But that would be a regress of civilization, not progress! The civilization progress is to have much more private transport and also somewhat more public transport.

HPsquared 4y ago
Some people bemoan cars as a 20th-century anachronism. They forget that trains/trams/buses are from the 19th century and were superseded by cars. The e-scooter for hire is truly a 21st-century innovation, though. That, and the self-driving car.
- mantas 4y ago
  While private horse transport did exist for hundreds of years before that. Yes, it was slow and going longer distances was expensive. Yet the idea of personal transit is very natural.

fruit2020 4y ago

Thx for telling me what I need :) Only the rich will need a car

spaniard89277 4y ago

That's impossible to achieve. Not in 12 not in 50. It's not possible to cover with public transport all the places where cars can go. It's not capital nor operationally possible. What we will have is another strong wave of population concentrating in cities. Any economic activity outside of beaten paths will be very expensive. Because we are freaking retarded with housing in the west, people will lose the freedom private cars can give (because for most modal income people in europe, electric cars are simply not feasible), prices will increase even more. This happening while we have to deal with ageing and climate change, thus modal incomes will become efectively poor. Millions of rent slaves who have no savings and purchasing power, nor ability to scape because they can't move to live elsewhere where prices are lower, and commute to their job. Of course a combination of market + planning could, potentially solve this (kind of). But it's not going to happen because in Europe pensioners and near-to-be-pensioners rule everything, and they are so selfish and so short-sighted that they will dry public budgets until they collapse the system. The future of Europe is basically set in stone. France and Spain are very clear examples of what's ahead for everyone else. France on how a good chunk of the population is completely stupid and blind to the problem, and Spain on how politicians are willing to sacrifice a country to please pensioners. It's sad, but it is what it is.

LeonidasXIV 4y ago
> That's impossible to achieve. Not in 12 not in 50. It's not possible to cover with public transport all the places where cars can go. It's not capital nor operationally possible. It doesn't have to. A lot of population is urban and curbing car use in cities will be a massive improvement. So would proper train infrastructure to get between cities.
- spaniard89277 4y ago
  A lot of the economic activity needed to sustain cities happen elsewhere. Like farming, for example. But you also need wood, all kinds of rocks, sands, etc. It's simply not feasible.
ben_w 4y ago
> It's not possible to cover with public transport all the places where cars can go. OP said "most" not "all". Rental cars for the occasional exceptions, ownership for whoever has to use them regularly, that's still basically fine. > because for most modal income people in europe, electric cars are simply not feasible Purchase price, or price per km? Because that's a very important difference. Electric is already better on the latter, even if battery costs fail to get cheaper with more scale.
- favsq 4y ago
  >Rental cars for the occasional exceptions, ownership for whoever has to use them regularly, that's still basically fine. I'm really looking forward to the government knowing and controlling where I can go!
  - ben_w 4y ago
    The latter is not causally connected to the former.
    - favsq 4y ago
      oh we are in a covid lockdown. you can't get on this bus! oh it says here you have emitted a lot of co2 this year. you can't rent this car until next year! oh you were in an anti-goverment demonstration a few months ago so we know that you are headed to another one. you can't move from your 15-minute city! you really think these are hypotheticals?

ben_w 4y ago

I hope so, but I'd caution against just treating national economics as scaled up personal economic. Whoever makes the factory for the electric busses needs to talk to whoever makes the factories that make the batteries, who in turn need to talk to the miners, who might be anywhere in the world so you need to be confident about regional geopolitical concerns… Governments do this all the time, I'm sure it will be fine; but the details don't really fit into a comment box.

sdfgdfghj 4y ago

Public transport won't substitute the need or desire for private cars. Improving public transport's impact will plateau at some point because people will always value the privacy and benefits of using their own private car. You will never be able to create transport system where people take a bus in front of their door step, to the grocery store and back on demand.

black3r 4y ago
You don't need to take a bus to the grocery store if said grocery store is itself in 5 minute walking distance from your doorstep (or have said groceries delivered)... I buy 90% of my own groceries from one of the 3 stores on my street or using deliveries, only take the bus for the rest, usually max twice per month and then I don't really mind that the bus only comes once in 15 minutes instead of "on demand"...

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]